What base training sessions?

Johnpsanderson

OK - I have a bit of an idea what 'base training' is but want to get advice on how to actually do it. Here's a bit about me to explain:

I've been attempting to road race for the last 2 years with some (small!) success but don't feel i've really made the most of my training etc. Therefore I am looking to structure my training seriously this winter with the following races in mind for 2008...

3 x Mountain bike races in Jan-Feb (4hr races)
2 x road race series April-Sept (4th cats) and Jun-Aug (E/1/2/3/4) (1 hour races)
TT's throughout the season (a long sporting course in April but otherwise club 10's)
And possibly some cyclo-cross as well this winter...

I am keen to do it right this year so can give up about 15 hrs a week (if needs be!). I don't have a convenient club run but don't mind long solo rides.

What sort of sessions do I need to do for 'base training' and what should I avoid.?

How long do I need to base build for before working in speed training, etc?

Do I need a HRM and can anyone advise me of a particularly good model?

Thanks!!

Ric_Stern/RST

You've asked a very broad question (nothing wrong with that; except i don't have time to respond in detail). I would avoid, like the plague, just doing steady base miles where you ride at an easyish pace for long periods of time (which is the tradition in the off-season for cycling). all it will do is make you reasonable at riding steady for long periods of time.

You'd be far better off incorporating a fair amount of intensity, virtually the whole off-season. I can't tell you what you need, as i don't know your strengths and weakness (physiological profile).

In terms of a HR monitor, i'd either get the most basic one (providing you can view when doing a maximal effort) or forgetting it altogether and getting a power meter.

Coaching is also very useful

Ric

BeaconRuth

Johnpsanderson wrote:

Therefore I am looking to structure my training seriously this winter with the following races in mind for 2008...

3 x Mountain bike races in Jan-Feb (4hr races)
2 x road race series April-Sept (4th cats) and Jun-Aug (E/1/2/3/4) (1 hour races)
TT's throughout the season (a long sporting course in April but otherwise club 10's)
And possibly some cyclo-cross as well this winter...

I am keen to do it right this year so can give up about 15 hrs a week (if needs be!). I don't have a convenient club run but don't mind long solo rides.

What sort of sessions do I need to do for 'base training' and what should I avoid.?

With up to 15 hours a week to spare and some pretty long MTB events, I'd suggest you start by keeping the intensity low and building up to using most, if not all of the time you have available. Plenty of 2 hour rides at 75%-85% maxHR and longer non-stop rides at 65%-75% maxHR. It would be sheer stupidity to try to put in higher intensity work when you're building up that amount of volume and base.

How long do I need to base build for before working in speed training, etc?

Probably 8-12 weeks - the more the better really, but it depends on exactly when you want to be at your best. Bear in mind that you can't be flying all season. You HAVE to plan in peaks of performance and understand exactly what aspects of fitness you need to emphasize at any given time. It looks to me as though you'll need to have maximum endurance in Jan and Feb for 4hr events and your critical time for speed will come later? It's not a bad idea to classify races as 'target' ones and 'training' ones. Then pick the most important target one and aim to build up the speed work in the 6-8 weeks running up to it.

Do I need a HRM and can anyone advise me of a particularly good model?

They're a very good idea, although some people will try to tell you that nothing less than a powermeter is adequate. You can pay as much as you like and get a load of functions that you'll never use and a load of data that you'll rarely study, or alternatively you can get a very basic one that costs very little. IMO having an average HR reading is useful and everything else is fairly superfluous. Calories, lap times, maxHR, zone-setting, bells and whistles - not terribly interesting or useful to me. But it's all a question of personal taste really.

ps. I trust the "long sporting course in April" is the Beacon Little Mountain TT?! It's going to be EVEN bigger and better next year!

Ruth

Johnpsanderson

I trust the "long sporting course in April" is the Beacon Little Mountain TT?! It's going to be EVEN bigger and better next year!

Of course! I don't want to ask how it can get bigger (you aren't out shovelling more earth on the top of the hills are you?). As long as I can break 2 hours I will be happy.

It looks to me as though you'll need to have maximum endurance in Jan and Feb for 4hr events and your critical time for speed will come later?

This makes sense to me so I will really look to make the MTB races about lasting the distance at a good pace and treat them as good fun training sessions, maybe moving into the speed stage at the end of Feb. After all I really want to be going quickest when the road race season starts!

Thanks for the replies.

Alex_Simmons/RST

BeaconRuth wrote:

With up to 15 hours a week to spare and some pretty long MTB events, I'd suggest you start by keeping the intensity low and building up to using most, if not all of the time you have available. Plenty of 2 hour rides at 75%-85% maxHR and longer non-stop rides at 65%-75% maxHR. It would be sheer stupidity to try to put in higher intensity work when you're building up that amount of volume and base.

Hi guys, new to this forum.

While progressive loading makes complete sense, riding lots of hours at near borderline recovery levels such as ~70% MHR seems a waste of valuable training time to me.

These long periods in early/pre-season are perfect for bringing in good levels of intensity to work not only on endurance but lifting functional threshold power and addressing other physiological limiters to improved aerobic conditioning such as Maximal Aerobic Power.

Johnpsanderson

riding lots of hours at near borderline recovery levels such as ~70% MHR seems a waste of valuable training time to me.

I'd taken this as advice that I should be putting in at least one long ride a week - given the length of the MTB race i'm aiming for in Jan Feb. (Plus a long ride at the weekend is quite nice!). I think I would struggle to sustain 4 hours at 75-85% - I know about it when I do a 2hr ride at this intensity I can really feel it!!

Weekly I'm planning on doing 8 hours at the 75-85% level, 4 hours at 65-75% and the remainder as 1 hour turbo sessions recovering - focussing on cadence, etc.

Thoughts?

hambones

I'm also doing some 4hr MTB enduros, one a month Nov-Feb - and hoping to be a little futher away from the back of the field this time around!

I've certainly upped the mileage and hours during the past 6 months or so - that said it's only gone up to around 60-80 miles a week as an average. My point is HR zones - if I assume my max is 190 (yes yes i know i've not had it tested etc - highest ever seen was 184) my 85% works out at 161 and last year I was hitting that for all of the 4hr enduros. My 75% is 143 and I have never done a solo or club ride of any length, from 1 hour to 6 hours anywhere near or less than that - it's normally morelike 147-150. What I'm asking is do I need to really slow it down for my endurance/base rides - to hit an average of 124 (65%) would be practically standing still!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Johnpsanderson wrote:

I'd taken this as advice that I should be putting in at least one long ride a week - given the length of the MTB race i'm aiming for in Jan Feb. (Plus a long ride at the weekend is quite nice!). I think I would struggle to sustain 4 hours at 75-85% - I know about it when I do a 2hr ride at this intensity I can really feel it!!

Weekly I'm planning on doing 8 hours at the 75-85% level, 4 hours at 65-75% and the remainder as 1 hour turbo sessions recovering - focussing on cadence, etc.

Thoughts?

As Ric said earlier, hard to give specific advice without knowing what your limiters are.

Are your rides MTB rides (i.e. specific to your target) or general road riding for fitness? It may be that an MTB ride sees HR higher than a road ride due to the highly variable nature of the ride intensity. Hard to say really.

Do you have days off the bike?

I still think you could up the intensity somewhat for some of your riding.

Here are some clues as to intensities and what physiological performance adaptations they have:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

yes it discusses in terms of power output but it also provides some HR guidance and perceived exertion comments as well.

Note the tremendous value to be mined in Level 3 riding.

Alex_Simmons/RST

hambones wrote:

What I'm asking is do I need to really slow it down for my endurance/base rides - to hit an average of 124 (65%) would be practically standing still!

No.

SteveR_100Milers

Fer christs sake listen to your your body and chuck that bloody hrm away!!! Ride RPE, THEN figure out your HRM ranges. No one REALLY knows thneir max HR so stop even tryimg to train to it. If you must insist on HR zone training then at least do it off your LT (Friel). Good Luck!

Johnpsanderson

Fer christs sake listen to your your body and chuck that bloody hrm away!!!

I've been loathe to use the HRM - thinking 'oh I can just go off feel' but find the HRM a useful motivator/limiter. The last 2 years training have, on hindsight, been full of easy rides going a little too hard, and hard rides going not quite hard enough.

I've got Friel now so will look at LT rather than my guesstimated max (...cue endless posts shouting at me for that!!!)

Alex_Simmons/RST

Johnpsanderson wrote:

I've got Friel now so will look at LT rather than my guesstimated max (...cue endless posts shouting at me for that!!!)

You might find this an interesting discussion on Friel's training Bible:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t423908.html
Cheers

ut_och_cykla

SNIP

3 x Mountain bike races in Jan-Feb (4hr races)
2 x road race series April-Sept (4th cats) and Jun-Aug (E/1/2/3/4) (1 hour races)
TT's throughout the season (a long sporting course in April but otherwise club 10's)
And possibly some cyclo-cross as well this winter...

SNIP

What sort of sessions do I need to do for 'base training' and what should I avoid.?

My take on this would be find out what speeds the courses you're interested in were last year and base your training on getting close to these for longer and longer periods over the months ahead of you. Start by doing longer sessions with shorter bursts of speed in them, aiming to make some sessions at least as long as your longest race holding as close to the speed you need as you can. Plan in Christmas /space for colds/bad weather and the races themselves so you know when you can take things easy/train harder
Once you've finished the long races you can take a 'pause' and shift over to road speeds & distances ( not familiar withwhat this would involve for you)

How long do I need to base build for before working in speed training, etc?

If you've cycled all summer you might not need much base! Concentrate on speed and for MTB technique

Do I need a HRM and can anyone advise me of a particularly good model?
No you don't need a HRM but they can help you track your progress, take it easy/ride harder etc. Remember they are only a tool - don't get one with more numbers than you're actually interested in. If you're not a numbers geek get a simple one - or do without!
A bike computer will tell you if you're getting faster if you have a longish/circular standard 'test' course to ride at regular intervals
Good luck - and don't overdo it!

Alex_Simmons/RST

WARNING! I meantion the word "power" in this response. If that offends, then don't read any further.

ut_och_cykla wrote:

A bike computer will tell you if you're getting faster if you have a longish/circular standard 'test' course to ride at regular intervals

If you're trying to measure fitness changes, that's a good idea as long as conditions (wind, temperature and air pressure and to a really small degree, humidity) are the same and you ride same bike set up and position so that you are comparing apples with apples.

Another alternative is to use a standard hillclimb as moderate to steep inclines reduce the impact of envirnmental conditions (since gravity - which is constant everywhere* - takes over from wind resistance as the major opposing force).

As an example of the problem that a flattish loop can bring I have a loop I use for my TT tests, to see if my aerobic condition has improved or not. Being roughly circular and flat/rolling, you'd think wind and other conditons would cancel out. Two TTs one month apart, same bike, set up, and a standard loop x 4, no ride disruptions and maximal effort both times.

TT1: 24' 28"
TT2: 23' 09"

So an improvement of 1 min 19 seconds or >5% reduction in time. That's pretty impressive improvement. Or is it?

Power output:
TT1: 324 watts
TT2: 326 watts

A measly 2 watts (0.6%) improvement.

OK - I know, why bring power into it? But it is important to know that if results differ, there are a number of reasons besides "fitness change" that could be the cause.

* - at least to the level of precision for the purpose of measuring cycling performance

Ric_Stern/RST

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

WARNING! I meantion the word "power" in this response. If that offends, then don't read any further.

ut_och_cykla wrote:

A bike computer will tell you if you're getting faster if you have a longish/circular standard 'test' course to ride at regular intervals

If you're trying to measure fitness changes, that's a good idea as long as conditions (wind, temperature and air pressure and to a really small degree, humidity) are the same and you ride same bike set up and position so that you are comparing apples with apples.

Another alternative is to use a standard hillclimb as moderate to steep inclines reduce the impact of envirnmental conditions (since gravity - which is constant everywhere* - takes over from wind resistance as the major opposing force).

As an example of the problem that a flattish loop can bring I have a loop I use for my TT tests, to see if my aerobic condition has improved or not. Being roughly circular and flat/rolling, you'd think wind and other conditons would cancel out. Two TTs one month apart, same bike, set up, and a standard loop x 4, no ride disruptions and maximal effort both times.

TT1: 24' 28"
TT2: 23' 09"

So an improvement of 1 min 19 seconds or >5% reduction in time. That's pretty impressive improvement. Or is it?

Power output:
TT1: 324 watts
TT2: 326 watts

A measly 2 watts (0.6%) improvement.

OK - I know, why bring power into it? But it is important to know that if results differ, there are a number of reasons besides "fitness change" that could be the cause.

* - at least to the level of precision for the purpose of measuring cycling performance

To follow on from Alex:

I have a 20ish minute loop that i do my road race training on (for anyone in south Wales, it's the loop around Ogmore by Sea). my times can vary by ~7% (about 4.5 mins) over each hour on different days, when the weather *feels* the same and my power is within a few Watts the same. Amazingly, i always feel best/fittest when my time is quicker irrespective of my power. Conversely, i feel the worse, when i record the highest powers.

in others words i don't really give a stuff about times (unless i happen to be changing aero bits on my bike) or how i feel, so long as i increase the power.

ric

Mike Willcox1

I know that my physical fitness and my mental fitness to ride a bike fast are two different animals. We all strive to reach the ultimate where on the start line both mental and physical fitness levels are at a peak (otherwise called excellent form).

Assessment cannot be absolutely meaningful when taking physical measurements in isolation. There may well be other reasons than purely physical why one ride produces a higher wattage than another. So on that basis it follows that it is virtually impossible to exactly have a situation where you are comparing apples with apples.

On the other hand if you are obsessed with measurement then you can always justify your reasons for doind so.

SteveR_100Milers

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

I know that my physical fitness and my mental fitness to ride a bike fast are two different animals. We all strive to reach the ultimate where on the start line both mental and physical fitness levels are at a peak (otherwise called excellent form).

Assessment cannot be absolutely meaningful when taking physical measurements in isolation. There may well be other reasons than purely physical why one ride produces a higher wattage than another. So on that basis it follows that it is virtually impossible to exactly have a situation where you are comparing apples with apples.

On the other hand if you are obsessed with measurement then you can always justify your reasons for doind so.

Indeed, but then there is a balance, after all time trialling is all about measurement. I see a power meter, a HRM simply devices that take away the variables of wind, temp etc. Its a personal choice as to whether one want to quantify effort and performance externally, or internally. Soem people have a poor judgement of PE, whilst other people are hugely motivated by external numbers. It's what suits an individual, and surely that is the secret to good coaching: there is no one size fits all solution to this.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

I know that my physical fitness and my mental fitness to ride a bike fast are two different animals. We all strive to reach the ultimate where on the start line both mental and physical fitness levels are at a peak (otherwise called excellent form).

Assessment cannot be absolutely meaningful when taking physical measurements in isolation. There may well be other reasons than purely physical why one ride produces a higher wattage than another. So on that basis it follows that it is virtually impossible to exactly have a situation where you are comparing apples with apples.

On the other hand if you are obsessed with measurement then you can always justify your reasons for doind so.

I have no doubt that the mental (e.g. motivation, stress levels) can have a sizeable impact on performance but whatever the reason, you either put out the watts or you don't.

At least with an objective measure (power) you can assess the reasons why (whether they be physical, environmental or mental factors).

Mike Willcox1

Having got the power data from a number of rides. Where do you go from there?

I know that in one TT I ride and beat a certain rider by one minute. The next day I ride the same course in the same weather conditions and I beat that rider by one minute and 20 seconds. My average Power rate is lower by 10 watts in the second race but my effort was even paced as it was the day before.

Was it because i was physically tired or not as mentally up for it although I thought I tried my best. Could it even have been my nutrition the evening before? Maybe I eat too many potatoes or maybe not enough. Maybe I shouldn't have eaten any potatoes at all.

I can't see how knowing that my average power was lower in the second ride help me with my training? It could be just a case of too many potatoes the evening before. For me there are too many variables to be that precise over anything.

Ric_Stern/RST

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

Having got the power data from a number of rides. Where do you go from there?

you haven't got a power meter.

I know that in one TT I ride and beat a certain rider by one minute. The next day I ride the same course in the same weather conditions and I beat that rider by one minute and 20 seconds. My average Power rate is lower by 10 watts in the second race but my effort was even paced as it was the day before.

and? perhaps the other rider was even more fatigued than you

Was it because i was physically tired or not as mentally up for it although I thought I tried my best. Could it even have been my nutrition the evening before? Maybe I eat too many potatoes or maybe not enough. Maybe I shouldn't have eaten any potatoes at all.

why would you think that just because you have a power meter that all your rides would produce the same power? I've no idea about your potato habit, but certainly we could look at your diet.

personally, i'd be looking at your Performance Manager Chart as the first stopping point.

I can't see how knowing that my average power was lower in the second ride help me with my training?

i know, but then *you* don't have a power meter, so i think you're trying to guess data without fully understanding it. Unfortunately, i don't have the rest of the day to go through the basics with you.

Ric

Mike Willcox1

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

Having got the power data from a number of rides. Where do you go from there?

you haven't got a power meter.

I know that in one TT I ride and beat a certain rider by one minute. The next day I ride the same course in the same weather conditions and I beat that rider by one minute and 20 seconds. My average Power rate is lower by 10 watts in the second race but my effort was even paced as it was the day before.

and? perhaps the other rider was even more fatigued than you

Was it because i was physically tired or not as mentally up for it although I thought I tried my best. Could it even have been my nutrition the evening before? Maybe I eat too many potatoes or maybe not enough. Maybe I shouldn't have eaten any potatoes at all.

why would you think that just because you have a power meter that all your rides would produce the same power? I've no idea about your potato habit, but certainly we could look at your diet.

personally, i'd be looking at your Performance Manager Chart as the first stopping point.

I can't see how knowing that my average power was lower in the second ride help me with my training?

i know, but then *you* don't have a power meter, so i think you're trying to guess data without fully understanding it. Unfortunately, i don't have the rest of the day to go through the basics with you.

Ric

You've lost the plot.

BeaconRuth

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

I can't see how knowing that my average power was lower in the second ride help me with my training? It could be just a case of too many potatoes the evening before. For me there are too many variables to be that precise over anything.

I love it. It's great to have you back, Mike. You've been missed.

Ruth

Mike Willcox1

BeaconRuth wrote:

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

I can't see how knowing that my average power was lower in the second ride help me with my training? It could be just a case of too many potatoes the evening before. For me there are too many variables to be that precise over anything.

I love it. It's great to have you back, Mike. You've been missed.

Ruth

I've missed you too.

It's about time we put the advocates of training by power into a proper perspective as well. It seems to me that the mere act of doing a training regime is guaranteed to produce results irrespective of whether or not you measure what you are doing.

BeaconRuth

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

It's about time we put the advocates of training by power into a proper perspective as well. It seems to me that the mere act of doing a training regime is guaranteed to produce results irrespective of whether or not you measure what you are doing.

Don't worry Mike, I think the vast majority of cyclists have things in the right perspective for them and make wise choices about which measurement tools they use. On a forum like this it's easy to forget that 99.99% of cyclists are out there training and getting fit without a powermeter and are very happy and successful in their sport.

Ruth

flattythehurdler

May I interject with a question please. I am 39 with a fairly stressful job and a toddler. I cycle about a 30 mile round trip to work every day (5 days a week) on a fixie. I climb about 250m on the trip, with a stretch of 12% (about 500m), and another long drag of about 6 % I did an ironman in july and have felt tired since really. I have to keep commuting so am still knocking out the miles, but tried to do an old training ride (45 miles with 1200m climbing) last thursday after work and had to bail at the top of the second hill. I felt as bad as I have ever done on a bike.
I would like to do a continental sportif next year, but just can't seem to get my power back. I took a week off, where i swam most days, and ran 8miles one day, but was still tired when i got back to work. I haven't put on much weight either since the ironman. Could my commute be the worst thing in that it tires me without really being of significant benefit? What should I do? Should I stop completely, stop going on a fixie. Can my commute be used to help me climb better? I really want to be able to do something like the marmotte, but seem to be getting weaker not stronger.

BeaconRuth

I'd suggest you think about taking some time off. I mean real, complete rest. No 8-mile runs or swimming most days. No 150 miles of commuting a week. Can you get to work another way? It sounds as though your body could just do with a bit of a break!

Ruth

flattythehurdler

How long for? I could cycle to the train and dodge the hill for a bit but I don't have a car and don't really want to get another. That would still mean at least a 12 mile round trip though, but mostly flat.
Could my commute be used to help me build up endurance? Is this a bad time of year to be thinking about this? I really don't know what to do. I am absolutely knackered most of the time (and babysitting all weekend :-(. Problem is, I get a bit cranky if I don't train.

ut_och_cykla

I'd agree with Ruth. (You don't need a power meter in case you've read the rest of this post)
Don't know what youäve done training wise before but 240 k a week fixed adn hilly sounds like hard work. If you are already a bit undernourished/weight, and lacking sound sleep (toddlers are lovely but.... ) You are probably breaking down more than you are building up. Plus spending up to 10 hours a week wrecking yourself.

Some options? - take the bus/get a lift - at least one way or some days a week.
Ride a geared bike & take it easy.
Don't ride at all for one week, then only ride 25% of current milage until you feel 'normal'
Take a car (yours not someone elses ) if you can.
Eat plenty - don't limit fats too much if you've been doing this up till now. Just make sure they are 'healthy' oils - nuts etc.
Use the extra time you get to SLEEP! (tho' this is probably easier said than done with toddler!
Take it easy until Christmas - you'll still have plenty of time to get back in form for the marmotte- next July?
If you don't feel better after a few weeks taking it easier see your doctor. You might be carrying a virus or be aneamic etc.

BlackHelmet

I've been feeling the same since July when I did 3 big races. I'm only just starting to feel that sense of strength returning. If you must continue commuting by bike, I'd suggest you try a geared bike and cycle relatively easily. You'll be surprised how much less it takes out of you when you throttle back a little.

SteveR_100Milers

Mike I'd like to add a belated welcome back mate. I had a "silly week" last week, one day maybe I'll show you the ECG... :roll: Sometimes a machine output can confuse more than one very intelligent and educated person, which is also why flying IS dangerous.

nolf

I've had a look at some of my training books and on my schedule it shows October to be completely free of any training!
If you have to ride don't count it as training miles and just ride for fun.

Then for me I gradually increase the endurance mileage gradually until February when I start doing proper speed work and practice races.

Then I peak in July/August (after my exams).