Cyclists and 4x4s..........

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

You got it at last LLB. Your car will cause more damage in the same circumstances than mine, hence you are less responsible. I can choose to speed or not and become more or less responsible. You have made the choice to be less responsible at all times whilst driving your 4x4.

And just because you have a bad 4x4 doesn't mean everyone does. A lot of 4x4s can cruise quite happily at 80mph on country roads.
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Joe, you just don't get it at all do you. I didn't buy it to tear up the tarmac, or drive in a spirited manner. Its not a 'bad 4x4', Its a working vehicle which has to cope with driving on road and off road in its primary role which is to move livestock from their place of residence to where they work in their role of advertising my business which is usually farmers fields.

A regular AWD car wouldn't be able to do what mine does with a 2 tonne load hitched to it, It wouldn't be heavy enough, have the ground clearance, or the tyres to offer traction on a muddy track which has already been chopped up by dozens of other vehicles. If I replaced it for a 7.5 tonne lorry, I'd end up needing a tow with a tractor most weekends as they are only 2wd, don't have locking diffs and weigh much more on each axle.

If I want to go fast and move in a 'spirited' manner, I've got the bottle to use my bike on a track where I'm not a danger to others!
Why don't you give track driving a try sometime - it sorts the posers from the drivers (apparently) [:D]

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Joe Sacco · June 2007

I get it Linford. You said a 4x4 cannot cruise along country roads at 80, whereas what you mean't was YOUR 4x4 can't. Most other 4x4s on the road can and do quite happily.
And still you try and slip in a justification for your ownership. Why keep trying to justify it? I don't care what you or anyone else drives.

I was just picking you up on your responsibility comment concerning other roads users. You have now admitted than being hit by a 4x4 is worse than by a car so end of discussion.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I get it Linford. You said a 4x4 cannot cruise along country roads at 80, whereas what you mean't was YOUR 4x4 can't. Most other 4x4s on the road can and do quite happily.
And still you try and slip in a justification for your ownership. Why keep trying to justify it? I don't care what you or anyone else drives.

I was just picking you up on your responsibility comment concerning other roads users. You have now admitted than being hit by a 4x4 is worse than by a car so end of discussion.
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You asked me for justification in your first post Joe, you have continually asked for justification throughout this thread since.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
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Utility 4x4s are not fast cars, they are designed as working vehicles which can be taken offroad. The top speed of a Humvee is 45mph, the top speed of a Landrover Defender is about 70mph.
I would not buy an X5 or an ML because they are crap at the offroad thing even if they conform to your ideal of being a good car because they can cruise at 80mph.

My 4x4 is not 'just' another car, it is a business vehicle in the way that a plumber uses a transit van, or a driver uses a bus. Both these types of vehicle have the capacity to inflict damage in the same way that any car on the road can, and to quote the public information ad on TV 'If you get hit by a car at 30mph, 80% of victims will survive, if you get hit by a car at 40mph, then 80% will die.

Getting run over by any vehicle is always going to be messy !

The problem is that for you speed and performance is all. That is why your Porsche will never be more than a toy, and you know deep down because of this and its appalling depreciation is why you will always struggle to justify ownership of it !

I'm amazed that you are attempting to take the moral high ground as a Porsche owner who only uses the car for 'spirited' drives.

Regarding responsibility on the road, perhaps you will remember that next damp afternoon when you are doing the spirited driving bit and someone pulls out on you because they have misjudged your approach speed, or you overcook the entry speed on a blind bend and run wide !

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Joe Sacco · June 2007

The fact is Linford you do not know how I drive so cannot comment. I know you drive a 4x4 so I can. I see you are now trying to turn it to pedestrians being hit and it being messy. We started by talking about accidents involving other cars so we need to stick to that.

I have never asked you for justification, as I said I don't care what you drive. What I do care about is someone saying I drive irresponsibly.
As for moral high ground, it was you that claimed that by making the irresponsible comment. I do not drive irresponsibly so you were wrong I'm afraid.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

You are asserting that every farmer, and every business which uses these vehicles (including the environment agency) is irresponsible for doing so, and putting the lives of others at risk unneccessarily ?

You have already admitted to driving you Porsche 'spiritedly' on A roads. you don't need to drive any vehicle 'spiritedly' to get from A to B !

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

You are asserting that every farmer, and every business which uses these vehicles (including the environment agency) is irresponsible for doing so, and putting the lives of others at risk unneccessarily ?

You have already admitted to driving you Porsche 'spiritedly' on A roads. you don't need to drive any vehicle 'spiritedly' to get from A to B !
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I have never used the word 'spiritedly', why keep using it?

If I cause an accident by driving too fast the car is irrelevant (Porsche, 4x4, whatever) This is what you are missing.

However, if I drive a lorry too fast it will do more harm to others than driving a Caterham too fast (same amount of too fast)

You brought responsibility into it, not me, and are now trying to justify everyone elses use of 4x4 as well! I'll say it again, I don't care what people drive, but if YOU are going to discuss responsibility then these factors need to be applied.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Too fast for what, the conditions, the posted limits
, or what you consider to be safe ?
So you drive a 300+bhp Porsche, you have never driven over 100mph anywhere, as you have stated on other threads have just as much fun on the A roads below 100mph, you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

Too fast for what, the conditions, the posted limits
, or what you consider to be safe ?
So you drive a 300+bhp Porsche, you have never driven over 100mph anywhere, as you have stated on other threads have just as much fun on the A roads below 100mph, you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?
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That's it, just keep trying to change the subject. I keep telling you I drvie responsibly. If you don't believe that then that is your problem and one i can't help you with.
I'll stop with this one now as you have admitted 4x4s do more harm to others than a car in the same circumstances so that's all I needed.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

We only have your word on the 'responsible driving' bit Joe.

Quite frankly, you come across as a bit of a bull****ter who is prepared to spend the value of a small mortgage on a performance car, and then deny that they have ever driven the car in a spirited manner.

If you are a member of any Porsche owners forums, I'd love to see what the other members would to say about your claims of your 'driving miss daisy' style - or even if they believed you.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

We only have your word on the 'responsible driving' bit Joe.

Quite frankly, you come across as a bit of a bull****ter who is prepared to spend the value of a small mortgage on a performance car, and then deny that they have ever driven the car in a spirited manner.

If you are a member of any Porsche owners forums, I'd love to see what the other members would to say about your claims of your 'driving miss daisy' style - or even if they believed you.

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As I said, your problem if you don't believe me and nothing I can do to help you with that.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

No I don't buy it Joe. Your claims of indulgence and restraint are and will remain beyond belief.

Smeggers · June 2007

You two still at it?

Get a room!

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

llllllll · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox
you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?
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Just as an aside you can drive "spiritedly" without a) breaking the law or b) driving dangerously. I've had hatchbacks for the last couple of years and they were just a tool to get from a to b, but I've recently got an old classic back on the road. It's much slower than the hatch (in fact 60mph is about tops at the moment)and it's taken over 2 years to get it running properly, so trust me I'm not going to do anything stupid and throw it off the road. But it's so much more fun to drive, thing is it feels fast, and this is where the Catherham comes in (I suspect it's similar in a Porsche, though I doubt I'll ever find out), drive down the road at 30mph and it feels like 70mph did in my old hatchback. And there's no laws against accelerating out of a corner or reving to the redline before changing gear. Dispite the Governments best attempts driving can still be fun on the roads and that doesn't automatically translate to driving dangerously

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

No I don't buy it Joe. Your claims of indulgence and restraint are and will remain beyond belief.
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I think the word I am now looking for is "whatever"

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by llllllll

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox
you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just as an aside you can drive "spiritedly" without a) breaking the law or b) driving dangerously. I've had hatchbacks for the last couple of years and they were just a tool to get from a to b, but I've recently got an old classic back on the road. It's much slower than the hatch (in fact 60mph is about tops at the moment)and it's taken over 2 years to get it running properly, so trust me I'm not going to do anything stupid and throw it off the road. But it's so much more fun to drive, thing is it feels fast, and this is where the Catherham comes in (I suspect it's similar in a Porsche, though I doubt I'll ever find out), drive down the road at 30mph and it feels like 70mph did in my old hatchback. And there's no laws against accelerating out of a corner or reving to the redline before changing gear. Dispite the Governments best attempts driving can still be fun on the roads and that doesn't automatically translate to driving dangerously
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Agree. A Caterham is more a comparison. A Porsche is not. You could be doing 130mph without noticing it in most Porsches I would imagine.

GT2 MK3 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would only buy one if I planned to take it to a race track personally.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GT2 MK3

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would only buy one if I planned to take it to a race track personally.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have used one as my only car for more than a year in the past, but know where you are coming from.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I think you would be on dodgy ground if you tried it in front of a traffic plod. All dependant on where and who is around you at the time but a traffic officer is classed as an expert witness in all road matters in the eyes of the court.

Regarding the new Porsche, old banger comparison, it goes both ways (IE in a supercar, you lose sensation of speed due to the handling characteristics, effortless performance, and soundproofing they offer).

Perhaps Joe could enlighen us to the speed on the redline in 1st gear of his 180mph + Porsche ?

If its any comparison, a Suzuki GSXR1000 does 105mph in 1st gear, has 6 gears and a maximum top speed of 175mph.

As for the offences for spirited driving, Take your pick :-

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
CD10 Driving without due care and attention 3-9 points
CD20 Driving without reasonable consideration for other road users 3-9 points
CD30 Driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users 3-9 points<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GT2 MK3

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

you even suggested a few weeks ago that you would get a Caterham. Now why would you want to get a car like that if not to drive spiritedly ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would only buy one if I planned to take it to a race track personally.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Joe doesn't do racetracks, he'd rather use the roads as he's afraid of binning it [:D]

I use both BTW.

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

GT2 MK3 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

Perhaps Joe could enlighen us to the speed on the redline in 1st gear of his 180mph + Porsche ?

If its any comparison, a Suzuki GSXR1000 does 105mph in 1st gear, has 6 gears and a maximum top speed of 175mph.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">60 mph was the redline in 1st gear in my GT2

llllllll · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox
As for the offences for spirited driving, Take your pick :-

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
CD10 Driving without due care and attention 3-9 points
CD20 Driving without reasonable consideration for other road users 3-9 points
CD30 Driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users 3-9 points<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Again you're assuming all spirited driving is automatically bad driving. Of course there's plenty of xxxxs on the road, but there's no reason you can't enjoy driving whilst paying attention or beening considerate to others. In fact I'd go so far as to say those who do enjoy driving probably pay more attention to the road than those for thom it is a chore. I'm sure we've all been stuck behind some old dear doing 40mph on the motorway or someone weaving all over the road at 20mph down a straight and open b road.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

My old sig summed it up nicely :-

'Have you ever noticed that everyone driving slower than you is an idiot and everyone driving faster than you is a maniac'

what you may perceive as spirited but safe can be construed as far too fast by others.

This effect can be noticed when leaving the motorway after driving at speed for a couple of hours. 30mph feels like walking pace !

Joe Sacco · June 2007

You could always use accident history as backup to how safe your driving is?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I'll let you go first Joe..

llllllll · June 2007

Personally I've only ever had one accident, someone reversed into the side of my car in Halfords car park. It goes without saying I was spiritedly parking my car too fast at the time. Never had a speeding ticket.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I'll let you go first Joe..
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One. Drunk driver pulled out right in front of me 20 years ago, 100% his fault as backed up by police/insurance. I was travelling at less than 30mph (luckily as the forces involved was certainly a shock to me!)

Once for speeding (80mph on a motorway) 10 years ago. My fault, didn't notice the unmarked police car.

ransos · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I'll let you go first Joe..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One. Drunk driver pulled out right in front of me 20 years ago, 100% his fault as backed up by police/insurance. I was travelling at less than 30mph (luckily as the forces involved was certainly a shock to me!)

Once for speeding (80mph on a motorway) 10 years ago. My fault, didn't notice the unmarked police car.
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So lets say you were going much faster in your accident. It still would have been the other guy's fault, but you would have a far greater risk of serious injury to you and him. Speed kills, whether or not it is the cause of the accident.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Never had an accident or claim in the car/s

3 times on bikes. Once 25 years ago on black ice at about 25mph after hitting a pothole, once on diesel 6 years ago @ 25mph again on the entry to a roundabout, and once on the track on the marbles a month ago at about 60mph.

Clean license since 82

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ransos

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I'll let you go first Joe..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One. Drunk driver pulled out right in front of me 20 years ago, 100% his fault as backed up by police/insurance. I was travelling at less than 30mph (luckily as the forces involved was certainly a shock to me!)

Once for speeding (80mph on a motorway) 10 years ago. My fault, didn't notice the unmarked police car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So lets say you were going much faster in your accident. It still would have been the other guy's fault, but you would have a far greater risk of serious injury to you and him. Speed kills, whether or not it is the cause of the accident.
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Yes. But if I had been going faster I wouldn't have been there when he pulled out. (but may have hit a few cars further up the road instead!)

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GT2 MK3

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

Perhaps Joe could enlighen us to the speed on the redline in 1st gear of his 180mph + Porsche ?

If its any comparison, a Suzuki GSXR1000 does 105mph in 1st gear, has 6 gears and a maximum top speed of 175mph.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">60 mph was the redline in 1st gear in my GT2
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow, there's a name from the past.

Are you the one and only? The Original GT2? Who has been banned twice before? Or just a cruel hoax?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cyclists and 4x4s..........

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