Cyclists and 4x4s..........

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Are the only vehicles getting through the flooding up this way this morning up my way, It is bedlam [:0]

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Unkraut · June 2007

What about those who own a baby elephant?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Ah, the fording abilities of elephants are prodigious, So many chancing their luck by trying to ford in regular cars.

I passed a poor chap under a bridge in Cheltenham today, who was trying to push his car out of the flood, and the water was up by the door handles !

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?

Russell_john · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

about the same number of times in the year that you can open up your faux porsche properly [:D]

are they wibbin me Centurwion?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

about the same number of times in the year that you can open up your faux porsche properly [:D]

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I open it up pretty much every day. Who makes a faux Porsche though?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have had weeks on end of flooding up this way earlier this year, It can go where most road vehicles can't - flooding being just one area.

I should swap it for a Porsche which doesn't go over 100mph and will be terrified to drive on a track in case I crash it !

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Russell_john · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

about the same number of times in the year that you can open up your faux porsche properly [:D]

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I open it up pretty much every day. Who makes a faux Porsche though?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

... one without leather seats, a 3.6 water cooled engine minimum, a turbocharger and at least 340ps! - otherwise it's about as faux as cubic zirconia, 'vegetarian bacon' and 'eco friendly shoes'.

(only teasing Joe .....[:)] )

are they wibbin me Centurwion?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

about the same number of times in the year that you can open up your faux porsche properly [:D]

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I open it up pretty much every day. Who makes a faux Porsche though?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

... one without leather seats, a 3.6 water cooled engine minimum, a turbocharger and at least 340ps! - otherwise it's about as faux as cubic zirconia, 'vegetarian bacon' and 'eco friendly shoes'.

(only teasing Joe .....[:)] )

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tease away. I was just wondering what was considered a faux Porsche after the demise of the 924.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We have had weeks on end of flooding up this way earlier this year, It can go where most road vehicles can't - flooding being just one area.

I should swap it for a Porsche which doesn't go over 100mph and will be terrified to drive on a track in case I crash it !

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anyone with any sense or foresight would move out of that area pretty quickly before they live in an unsellable flood plain. Guess you'll be staying though.

I am not saying you should sell your 4*4, just that you should stop trying to justify it. We all know your thoughts on it so why keep raising it all the time?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Flood plane living applies to most of London as well Joe.

The chances of mine flooding is fairly remote as its a fair distance from the nearest river/stream as well as in elevation, but many of the homes damaged today up this way have been half way up the side of a hill and caught the water running off it.

As for ownership, I can justify having a 4x4 far more easily than a sub 100mph Porsche [;)]

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

Flood plane living applies to most of London as well Joe.

The chances of mine flooding is fairly remote as its a fair distance from the nearest river/stream as well as in elevation, but many of the homes damaged today up this way have been half way up the side of a hill and caught the water running off it.

As for ownership, I can justify having a 4x4 far more easily than a sub 100mph Porsche [;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The difference is I don't continually try and justify my choice of car, you do.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I wasn't trying to justify it, I was stating a fact - Only 4x4s and cyclists were getting through, see both can co-exist in the face of adversity [:D]

Apart from using it to massage your massive ego. You don't drive it fast on the road (sensible), and you don't drive it on the track . Its such a depreciating asset, I'm wondering how you can attempt to justify it to yourself let alone anyone else apart from having it as a garage ornament [:D]

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I wasn't trying to justify it, I was stating a fact - Only 4x4s and cyclists were getting through, see both can co-exist in the face of adversity [:D]

Apart from using it to massage your massive ego. You don't drive it fast on the road (sensible), and you don't drive it on the track . Its such a depreciating asset, I'm wondering how you can attempt to justify it to yourself let alone anyone else apart from having it as a garage ornament [:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why do you feel the need to state a fact on soapbox? Is it telling us something we don't already know?

It is easy to justify my cars to myself. I love driving them and I have the money to buy them. Justification done.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I was commenting on the 6"-2ft ft of standing water causing chaos in my area and disabling 'normal' cars Joe, you seemed to have missed the original point of the thread entirely.

hevipedal · June 2007

The road outside my house sometimes floods when the drain covers get blocked; this cause a very large puddle across the road on a bend. Doesn't get near the house but is about 6 inches deep at it's worst. I go out and rake the debris off the drain cover and away goes the water. I always laugh when I see boy racer stonking down the road at me thinking he'll give me a soaking. I get back out of the way of the bow wave and ........................ he stalls his car because of water causing the electrics to cut out.

 Hevipedal 
Phrase of the week - I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like.
It's got a basket, a bell that rings and
Things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it.
 
51yrs old and Proud of it - Made it to 87kg 2 more to go for the target.
Pedal to Paris Sept 2007

chewa · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes we know you drive a 4*4. Are you suggesting everyone should own one so they can deal with the rare flood?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

about the same number of times in the year that you can open up your faux porsche properly [:D]

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I open it up pretty much every day. Who makes a faux Porsche though?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

... one without leather seats, a 3.6 water cooled engine minimum, a turbocharger and at least 340ps! - otherwise it's about as faux as cubic zirconia, 'vegetarian bacon' and 'eco friendly shoes'.

(only teasing Joe .....[:)] )

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tease away. I was just wondering what was considered a faux Porsche after the demise of the 924.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A Boxster or a Cayenne, or a Cayman. Engine's in the wrong place, and it's not aircooled. Basically anything post 930 (with a special dispensation for the 928 'cos that's just plain gorgeous!![:D]

plus je vois les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens

Jacomus-rides-Gen · June 2007

There is nothing wrong with driving a sports car, even if you don't scream around a track (btw - I have a shared Ford KA, just to clarify my position in the car stakes here!!) if you want a nice car and can have one - why not? Especially if you are going to drive that nice car like a responsible citizen, someone who appriciates the quality of the car, without needing to see how fast they throw themselves into a hedge.

IMO there is less justification for driving a 4x4 on the road than there is driving a Porsche, one might even claim that the ability of the Porsche to stop in less than half the distance required by the Highway Code is actually a safety feature compared to a lumbering 4x4. Also, Porsche vs normal car in a crash is a lot fairer on the occupants of the other car than getting crushed by a 4x4. And no less safe for the occupants of the Porsche than the 4x4.

It can easily be compared to bikes. Does Joe Bloggs NEED to buy a full carbon speed machine to haul his 13st frame out every Sunday on the club run - absolutely no. Is he hurting anyone by enjoying such a beautiful machine? Absolutely no. Should he not buy sed carbon beauty and instead buy a CycloX bike for when it rains hard...?

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."

Archcp · June 2007

To sidestep the 4x4/Porsche argument for a moment...

Just to repeat a warning I heard some years ago. If cycling(or walking, especially walking)along a flooded road, be aware that the surge of water backing up in drains can be powerful enough to lift manhole and drain covers - so if you can't see the road surface, you could find your wheel (or foot) going down a very deep hole - at best, you might fall off, but if you happen to be on foot, and drop unexpectedly down a large drain and can't get back out again...[:(]

So don't assume, even if you know the road, that it's safe to proceed with anything less than a great deal of caution...

In fact, I just heard that a guy in Hull drowned, trying to clear a drain...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236348.stm

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chewa

A Boxster or a Cayenne, or a Cayman. Engine's in the wrong place, and it's not aircooled. Basically anything post 930 (with a special dispensation for the 928 'cos that's just plain gorgeous!![:D]

plus je vois les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What an odd way of thinking you have. I though as long as it was made and designed by Porsched and had a Porsche engine, brakes etc, it was a Porsche. Odd to limit a car by the position of it's engine and whether it is air cooled or not. I think you need to open your mind a bit.

Along with the fact that the mid engined ones are easily as good to drive!

You need to look at the 914 and 924 to question whether they are real or not.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jacomus-rides-Gen

There is nothing wrong with driving a sports car, even if you don't scream around a track (btw - I have a shared Ford KA, just to clarify my position in the car stakes here!!) if you want a nice car and can have one - why not? Especially if you are going to drive that nice car like a responsible citizen, someone who appriciates the quality of the car, without needing to see how fast they throw themselves into a hedge.

IMO there is less justification for driving a 4x4 on the road than there is driving a Porsche, one might even claim that the ability of the Porsche to stop in less than half the distance required by the Highway Code is actually a safety feature compared to a lumbering 4x4. Also, Porsche vs normal car in a crash is a lot fairer on the occupants of the other car than getting crushed by a 4x4. And no less safe for the occupants of the Porsche than the 4x4.

It can easily be compared to bikes. Does Joe Bloggs NEED to buy a full carbon speed machine to haul his 13st frame out every Sunday on the club run - absolutely no. Is he hurting anyone by enjoying such a beautiful machine? Absolutely no. Should he not buy sed carbon beauty and instead buy a CycloX bike for when it rains hard...?

_________________________

Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think your 'lumbering' description says it all really. They are slow, and a vehicles mass increases by the square.Most 4x4s will struggle to do 80mph on a good day which means that the average motorway cruising speed for a 'real 4x4' is about 55-60mph.

'All' the owners I know who have bought 4x4s have done so to either tow a large trailer or Caravan, or to go off-road.

Lets not be under any illusion about the purpose of a 300+ bhp Porsche. It is bought to be driven hard and fast. They are supercars FFS. They are not bought to carry shopping, or the kids to school, or any other utility use, they are bought by adrenalin junkies so they can get their fixes, and if they don't get these fixes on the track through organised trackdays or racing (because they are afraid of crashing), then they will get them on the road!

I ride my motorcycle on trackdays, I'm an adrenaline junkie myself, I'd not have a supersports bike if I wanted a sedate ride, I am not trying to blow smoke up anyones arse about my justification for ownership of a speed machine !

For those who claim to never drive their supercars above 100mph, but drive them in a 'spirited' manner on country roads, I'd say that it is a known fact that far higher proportion of fatal accidents in the UK occur on rural roads, and to drive a supercar hard on them up to speeds of 100mph is to be either a) grossly irresponsible, or b) grossly irresponsible !

Did you not see the crash test on Top Gear between a Volvo 740 and a 5 series BMW a few years ago with both cars doing 50mph.

They stated after analysis of the data that the loads involved at these speeds would have killed all the occupants outright.

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Then there is the argument that driving a 4*4 at any speed is grossly irresponsible as the car and occupants you collide with is at an instant disadvantage. Or do you not accept that?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

4x4s are not drivers cars designed to be used in a 'spirited' fashion, They are designed as utility vehicles, they are very boring to drive on the roads. The performance of mine is about the same as a 1.1 litre fiesta on a good day. You don't get a 'thrill' from driving one at any speed

Get knocked off your cycle by a Smart car and you are at an instant disadvantage Joe, I don't really get your point.
I'll bet that your Porsche has every conceivable safety device built into it, My 4x4 hasn't even got a drivers airbag, I don't intend on hitting anything with it in any cas as I don't drive it in a spirited manner.

Cunobelin · June 2007

The answer is simple.......

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cunobelin

The answer is simple.......

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that I do like [8D], It looked like an expensive but well engineered piece of kit to buy [:)]

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

ransos · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

4x4s are not drivers cars designed to be used in a 'spirited' fashion, They are designed as utility vehicles, they are very boring to drive on the roads. The performance of mine is about the same as a 1.1 litre fiesta on a good day. You don't get a 'thrill' from driving one at any speed

Get knocked off your cycle by a Smart car and you are at an instant disadvantage Joe, I don't really get your point.
I'll bet that your Porsche has every conceivable safety device built into it, My 4x4 hasn't even got a drivers airbag, I don't intend on hitting anything with it in any cas as I don't drive it in a spirited manner.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm sure that's true in your case, but what I see is legions of Range Rovers and X5s charging down the motorway at 90+ bumper to bumper in the rain. Utter stupidity.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

4x4s are not drivers cars designed to be used in a 'spirited' fashion, They are designed as utility vehicles, they are very boring to drive on the roads. The performance of mine is about the same as a 1.1 litre fiesta on a good day. You don't get a 'thrill' from driving one at any speed

Get knocked off your cycle by a Smart car and you are at an instant disadvantage Joe, I don't really get your point.
I'll bet that your Porsche has every conceivable safety device built into it, My 4x4 hasn't even got a drivers airbag, I don't intend on hitting anything with it in any cas as I don't drive it in a spirited manner.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My point is that is is irresponsible to own a 4x4 that will ALWAYS do more damage to others in an accident, whereas owning a fast car will is only irresponsible if you choose to speed in it.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

4x4s are not drivers cars designed to be used in a 'spirited' fashion, They are designed as utility vehicles, they are very boring to drive on the roads. The performance of mine is about the same as a 1.1 litre fiesta on a good day. You don't get a 'thrill' from driving one at any speed

Get knocked off your cycle by a Smart car and you are at an instant disadvantage Joe, I don't really get your point.
I'll bet that your Porsche has every conceivable safety device built into it, My 4x4 hasn't even got a drivers airbag, I don't intend on hitting anything with it in any cas as I don't drive it in a spirited manner.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My point is that is is irresponsible to own a 4x4 that will ALWAYS do more damage to others in an accident, whereas owning a fast car will is only irresponsible if you choose to speed in it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You make the assumption that to own a 4x4 is to automatically have an accident with one. I say that you rely too much on technology to make your passage a safer one on the road in your Porsche, and should perhaps convey yourself in a less 'spirited' manner to safeguard those around you.
You may not be driving beyond the limits of the car, but there is nothing to say that you will exceed your own limits through lack of experience and/or poor judgement.

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Joe Sacco · June 2007

You're not getting it are you Linford. An accident would happen in whatever you are driving at a given time. (assuming same speed) The 4x4 would cause more damage to the other car than a normal car.

This has nothing to do with limits, exceeding limits in a 4x4 could be more dangerous than exceeding limits in a sports car due to the inherent poor handling.

I have also owned several Caterhams, and plan on getting another soon. I know about reliance on technology!

I would say you need to get rid of your 4x4 if you are that interested in safeguarding those around you. You are assuming I am driving recklessy, whereas I know you are driving a 4x4.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I need to move livestock around on a regular basis Joe. Can you suggest a suitable alternative arrangement to replace my 4x4 for shifting two 500kg animals apart from driving them on foot ?.

Like many other horse owners, I have a NEED for this vehicle, If I were to get them moved by other means for whatever reason, it would involve a 7.5 tonne lorry which would do substantially more damage than a 4x4 and trailer.
For you and your sports car, the requirement is just driven by desire.

ACcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I need to move livestock around on a regular basis Joe. Can you suggest a suitable alternative arrangement to replace my 4x4 for shifting two 500kg animals apart from driving them on foot ?.

Like many other horse owners, I have a NEED for this vehicle, If I were to get them moved by other means for whatever reason, it would involve a 7.5 tonne lorry which would do substantially more damage than a 4x4 and trailer.
For you and your sports car, the requirement is just driven by desire.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Need to move livestock around? Why need? I bet in reality you have a choice as to whether to move them around or not. Some people use the word need too freely IMO.

I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf

Cyclists and 4x4s..........

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