Very sad what can I say?

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by maz

What's this got to do with commuting? Was the driver on his way to work?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think he was.[:I]

Sorry maz but whether he was or not we all see irresponsible and ignorant drivers.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

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Buggi · June 2007

can i ask a few questions? you have to be really honest with the truth.

Firstly when was the last time you looked at your tyres?

and how many of you on a regular basis:

(1) actually properly test the depth of the tread on your tyre (especially wear on the inside where you can't see it without getting down and having a good look); or
(2) take a glance once every so often and judge for yourself; or
(3) just notice when they are getting bald (in which case they are probably well illegal by then).

i bet if you are really honest, there will be a few of you who don't check as often as you should. i'm now gonna check mine in the morning because in all honesty i can't remember the last time i did.

do you get my point?

_____________________________________________

To infinity... and beyond!
my epic adventure: www.action.org.uk/~Antonia

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Dunno.I have very little car experience.

That isn't the whole point.Perhaps he was driving to fast in icy conditions?

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

Most Sickening Car Advert 2007 http://tinyurl.com/36nq2e

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buggi

can i ask a few questions? you have to be really honest with the truth.

Firstly when was the last time you looked at your tyres?

and how many of you on a regular basis:

(1) actually properly test the depth of the tread on your tyre (especially wear on the inside where you can't see it without getting down and having a good look); or
(2) take a glance once every so often and judge for yourself; or
(3) just notice when they are getting bald (in which case they are probably well illegal by then).

i bet if you are really honest, there will be a few of you who don't check as often as you should. i'm now gonna check mine in the morning because in all honesty i can't remember the last time i did.

do you get my point?

_____________________________________________

To infinity... and beyond!
my epic adventure: www.action.org.uk/~Antonia
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's why there's the MOT test.
But if a driver does enough miles to wear the tread away between tests then it is their responsibility to check them periodically.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

jakob_s · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hackbike 6

Dunno.I have very little car experience.

That isn't the whole point.Perhaps he was driving to fast in icy conditions?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Except he wasn't aware that it was icy conditions!

FGG #2384

dondare · June 2007

It is possible to be caught unawares, for instance when there been an oil spill on the road.
But ice in winter is not something unexpected.
Careless driving is dangerous driving.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

Yorkshireman · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jakob_s

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hackbike 6

Dunno.I have very little car experience.

That isn't the whole point.Perhaps he was driving to fast in icy conditions?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Except he wasn't aware that it was icy conditions!

FGG #2384

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really? `Although Mr Harris told police he had scraped ice off his car for five minutes before setting off on his journey, he said the road had appeared to be clear until just moments before the crash. `
(copied from BBC News report Friday, 15 June 2007).

Colin N.

Lincolnshire is mostly flat... but the wind is mostly in your face!

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Was it cold?

I tend to get very suspicious that it may be icy when it is cold.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

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ed_m · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare
That's why there's the MOT test.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

no it's not !

the instant one of your tyres drops below the regs you are driving and illegal and officially unroadworthy vehicle. [xx(]

<center>____________________
www.ultrarunner.co.uk
</center>

nwallace · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
That's why there's the MOT test.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect œ200

Try telling that (It passed its MOT 11 months ago) to the officer that has pulled you over for having a failed tail lamp (all lamps must be in working order at all times, even if its not a lamp the car legally has to have e.g. Reversing or rear fog lamps.)

It is perfectly possible to drive a defective car out of an MOT test centre with the car having passed. (A Tyre depth gauge callibrated for 20 Degrees being used in a freezing cold garage could be the difference between 1.6mm and 1.59999mm) [You are now meant to get a warnings sheet but these usualy don't go further than the garage that submitted the car for testing, this meant i didn't know about an exhaust leak, and an oil leak (british/sweedish designed engine, leaks almost by design)]

And even more likely for a car thats just passed an MOT to suffer a failure first time something is used after it. Consumables like Lights, Brakes and Tyres are perfect examples of this.

Legally the only way a car that has failed an MOT test is if you are driving it to a place where it will be repaired and your insurance allows this (Usually doesn't)

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Some peoples really do know their onions on here.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

Most Sickening Car Advert 2007 http://tinyurl.com/36nq2e

cougie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by maz

What's this got to do with commuting? Was the driver on his way to work?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Apparently he was.

I dont believe it was that icy a day - one of the forummers was out in that vicinity and he thought the roads were fine. Very very localised ice. I dont think the club would have been out if the roads were very icy - not worth the risk. You cant stay up on ice on two wheels.

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Sorry but if it was bleeding freezing and if you had half a brain perhaps you could work out there may be a bit of ice about?

 Very very localised ice

So there was ice about?

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

Most Sickening Car Advert 2007 http://tinyurl.com/36nq2e

Unknown · June 2007

Jeez, some of you Old Testament riders need to get a grip.

This was an accident. It wasn't planned and nobody 'wanted' it to happen. The state of the guy's tyres made no difference. The ice was localised and freakishly bad at just the point the cyclists were on the road. The council had been warned an hour earlier that gritting was required but couldn't have mobilised a gritter in time to stop this awful confluence of events. The cyclists made a choice to go out in cold conditions. The driver 'chose' to drive to work.

People make choices and sometimes those choices affect people's lives.

I rode down the A41 in a torrential thunderstorm last Tuesday. Why didn't I stop? Why didn't I wait in the garage I rode past? Because I was two miles from home and made a choice. Cars whizzing past me in blinding rain. I didn't think about too much at the time but afterwards I thought it was such a dumb thing to do. If a car had killed me it would have been mostly my fault - but what would have been the 'impact' on the driver? Probably, deeply upsetting for them personally and mentally. And if they had had defective tyres - so fxxxxxg what.

There may be a lot of stupid drivers out there but there are a lot of stupid cyclists too.

I love riding my bike downhill really fast on tight country lanes. I often have no way of knowing what's coming the other way and not much chance of stopping if there's a problem. Going too fast for the conditions? You betcha! That's what makes it so much fun. But if I hit a car overtaking a horse & rider or tractor coming the other way - who's fault is that? And how would the driver feel having me smeared all over his windscreen? Pretty bad I would like to think.

All this moralising from some of you guys is pathetic. I'm fed up talking to non-driving cyclists who seem to think that motorists should instinctively understand the situations cyclists face on our roads. Try driving for once and understanding the perspective from behind the wheel to get the complete picture. Then maybe you wouldn't be so blinkered and judgemental.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My Dad's got a Colnago in his garage - but it's too small for me!

Jacomus-rides-Gen · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">By buggi

can i ask a few questions? you have to be really honest with the truth.

Firstly when was the last time you looked at your tyres?

and how many of you on a regular basis:

(1) actually properly test the depth of the tread on your tyre (especially wear on the inside where you can't see it without getting down and having a good look); or
(2) take a glance once every so often and judge for yourself; or
(3) just notice when they are getting bald (in which case they are probably well illegal by then).

i bet if you are really honest, there will be a few of you who don't check as often as you should. i'm now gonna check mine in the morning because in all honesty i can't remember the last time i did.

do you get my point?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On the first Saturday of every month I:

- Check tyre tread depth
- Check oil, coolant, screenwash, brake fluid levels
- Check wheel bolt torque
- Check brake pad wear
- Visual check of brake disks & exposed lines for damage
- Check all lights on vehicle
- Check tyre pressure incl. spare tyre
- Check tool kit, jack, and high-viz are present and correct

This might seem, or actually be, over the top - but luckily for me I am quite mechanically adept, and also greatly enjoy fiddling around doing this.

It takes me a few hours early in the morning, but meh, its relaxing and almost as much fun as fettling my bikes or motorbike.

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."

rothbook · June 2007

Harris killed four people by driiving too fast for the conditions. The killer driver spent fifteen minutes clearing ice off his windows and then drove at a speed he admits was too fast on a bend, on an incy road, killing four people who had done nothing wrong.

The fact that Harris escaped jail jusdt proves the old saying that if you want to kill someone run them over, you will get away with it.

Scumbag killers like Harris deserve to be jailed and lose their license, anything less is an insult to the dead mens' families and a green light to other reckless speeders.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

Harris killed four people by driiving too fast for the conditions. The killer driver spent fifteen minutes clearing ice off his windows and then drove at a speed he admits was too fast on a bend, on an incy road, killing four people who had done nothing wrong.

The fact that Harris escaped jail jusdt proves the old saying that if you want to kill someone run them over, you will get away with it.

Scumbag killers like Harris deserve to be jailed and lose their license, anything less is an insult to the dead mens' families and a green light to other reckless speeders.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah ... yeah .... YEAH!

Lets throw away the key too. Maybe solitary confinement as well so he can really have time to ponder all the 'what ifs'. Like 'what if' he hadn't come across a group of cyclists on a road affected by unusual and localised meteriological conditions? Or 'what if' he'd had that extra cup of tea or maybe woke up a bit earlier? Or 'what if' the cyclists had chosen a different route?

And yes, 'what if' he'd driven slower round that icy bend or 'what if' by driving slower he'd only crippled the cyclists?

Whatever. Lets put this evil motorist away so all the cyclists out there can feel that warm glow of self-righteous satisfaction.

An eye for an eye and all that ....

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My Dad's got a Colnago in his garage - but it's too small for me!

rothbook · June 2007

The justice system has more than just the punishment factor in mind when sentencing.

A custodial sentence would serve as a deterrent to those reckless fool drivers who think that placing vulnerable road users in danger is acceptable.

The sentence harris got is no deterrent at all.

Kill 4 people -it only costs you œ180.

Sickening.

A - W · June 2007

I feel for the families and their suffering.

I also spare a thought for the good people of the emergency services that would have to attend and deal with this incident.

Something so simple will effect many. We all must remember to exercise restraint when behind the wheel or in the saddle (motorbike & cycle).

rothbook · June 2007

Cycling death father tells of anger

"An inquest into the deaths heard how Jonathan Harland initially said he had felt no anger towards the man but had a change of heart "over many months".

His barrister said:

"That quotation has been extensively reported in the media as if it were indicative of his state of mind today.

"He has asked me to make clear to the jury the following - that he was interviewed a couple of days after the tragedy whilst still very much in a bewildered state.

"He says 'It was accurate and true at the time. However I have felt for many months nothing but anger towards the driver who killed my son and three of my best friends'."

Hopefully now certain groups will stop using his words as indication tha the cyclists don't lay any blame on the driver.

dondare · June 2007

Careless driving should not be treated as a trivial offence.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

Spikey_David · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Luigi

People make choices and sometimes those choices affect people's lives.

I rode down the A41 in a torrential thunderstorm last Tuesday. Why didn't I stop? Why didn't I wait in the garage I rode past? Because I was two miles from home and made a choice. Cars whizzing past me in blinding rain. I didn't think about too much at the time but afterwards I thought it was such a dumb thing to do. If a car had killed me it would have been mostly my fault - but what would have been the 'impact' on the driver? Probably, deeply upsetting for them personally and mentally. And if they had had defective tyres - so fxxxxxg what.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So I should have stayed in bed this morning because it's obviously far too wet to cycle safely to work!

And it must have been my fault, that I hit the driver who pulled out and stopped in front of me on a wet road (2 months ago). Obviously I should have walked home.

Yes we take risks in cycling on the road where we might get hit by cars etc. But that dosn't automatically make it "mostly our fault"!

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> What cyclists? The dead ones? They don't feel anything. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you might, on decency grounds, consider deleting this vile post. If you refuse I will report you.

Unknown · June 2007

You're missing the point Rothbook - and not for the first time.

Go back and read the post my words relate to.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My Dad's got a Colnago in his garage - but it's too small for me!

rothbook · June 2007

I have.

You've now been reported, take your despicable victim-blaming back to wherever you've crawled from.

rothbook · June 2007

Given that other drivers were reporting frozen puddles on the roads and
that they "had never seen so much frost on the roads" plus that the
driver had spent five minutes scraping ice off the car you can only
conclude that he could not have been other than aware of the situation.
It is notable that other drivers did notice these things and the
majority of drivers were able to deal with the conditions.

Another point - the driver was not interviewed till three days after the
event. Three days? If you killed four people, accidentally or not, by
any other means you would be interviewed a darn sight faster than that.

More on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6221950.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6226498.stm

rothbook · June 2007

And according to the BBC, although no further detail is given, "An
inquest jury has heard how a car which struck and killed four cycling
club members may have been travelling at between 60 and 70mph." That
speed was estimated by one of the cyclists while the driver following
the car described it as travelling at "at least 50mph".

The driver himself admits he was going too fast:

"Mr Harris said he noticed frosty conditions, but thought the roads were
safe. He did, however, admit he briefly considered whether he should
take possible road conditions into account.

When asked if he was travelling too quickly for the conditions, he said:
"Obviously, in hindsight, yes - but at the time I didn't think I was."

William Hoskins, representing the families, told Mr Harris: "On an icy,
clear day, this is not the kind of road you should be driving anywhere
near the kind of speed you were driving at, is it?"

Mr Harris replied: "That is correct."

He admitted doing between 50mph and 55mph before the crash - below the
speed limit - but denied speeding."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/33wgkw

Spunky Tupper · June 2007

I'm a bit confused. Did he spend 15 minutes or five minutes clearing the ice off his car?

And was he driving at 50, 55, 60 or 70 mph?

The BBC has a lot to say, including this:

A cyclist who survived a car crash in north Wales in which four members of a cycling club died has said it is wrong to blame anyone for what happened.
A car lost control on an icy road and skidded into the group of 12 cyclists on the A547 near Abergele on Sunday.

Maurice Broadbent, 61, from Rhuddlan, Dave Horrocks, 55, from Llanerch, Wayne Wilkes, 42, of Rhyl and Thomas Harland, 14, from Prestatyn, were killed.

But Mel Royles said the crash "was nobody's fault".

Mr Royles was at the back of the group from Rhyl Cycling Club when the crash happened at 1000 GMT on Sunday.

Eight of the cyclists were injured and four killed when the driver of a Toyota Corolla lost control on a bend, striking a wall and rebounding into the road.

The road had been gritted at about 1820 GMT on Saturday, but it emerged on Monday that North Wales Police requested that the road be gritted again following a minor accident, just an hour before the fatal crash.

Conwy Council has said it is examining its procedures.

But Mr Royles said blame should not be apportioned for the crash and said he felt sorry for the driver of the car involved.

"It was nobody's fault, it was an accident," he said.

"A lot of people are looking for someone to blame, whether it be the council, the car driver - it certainly wasn't the car driver.

"I wish the lad well. He's got a memory in his head for the rest of his life. I really do feel for him.

"The council and the gritting issue? I understand the police called them an hour earlier but they might have been out gritting all night.

"They've just got home and you can understand why it's going to take a while for the council to organise themselves and get back out there.

"I think we're sad people when we start looking to blame.

"And I think the sooner people start realising accidents happen the better."

rothbook · June 2007

Please don't post on a thread you haven't read properly spunky:

Cycling death father tells of anger

"An inquest into the deaths heard how Jonathan Harland initially said he had felt no anger towards the man but had a change of heart "over many months".

His barrister said:

"That quotation has been extensively reported in the media as if it were indicative of his state of mind today.

"He has asked me to make clear to the jury the following - that he was interviewed a couple of days after the tragedy whilst still very much in a bewildered state.

"He says 'It was accurate and true at the time. However I have felt for many months nothing but anger towards the driver who killed my son and three of my best friends'."

Hopefully now certain groups will stop using his words as indication tha the cyclists don't lay any blame on the driver.

You should really take a bit more care with your very first post.

Harris did not get in a non-roadworthy car "accidently".

Harris did not corner at speed on a road he had a good idea was icy "accidently".

An accident is unforseeable, driving at the limit in extreme weather conditions ON A BEND is making an accident extremely likely.

This was no accident.

Spunky Tupper · June 2007

I wasn't saying Jonathan Harland didn't feel anger. I was using the same source as you (the BBC) to show that a different cyclist who was there that day, Mel Royles, didn't think any blame should be apportioned.

You'll have to disagree with him not me.

So anyway, was it five or 15 minutes Harris spent clearing the ice off his car? We do want to be careful about what we post don't we ...

Very sad what can I say?

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