Very sad what can I say?

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/6226498.stm

I remember my club runs in the late 70's so this is tragic.[V]

COMMENTS PLEASE?

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Buggi · June 2007

i never know what to truly think in situations like this. it reminds me of a case i once was involved with when i worked in a solicitors. Guy goes out, leaves car keys at home, gets drunk. comes home off his face, thinks he's got to go to a work meeting in sheffield (scheduled for next day) in drunk state gets in car and ends up killing an 18 yr old, who ironically asked his mum to pick him up coz he was too drunk to drive. driver was completely gutted the next day when sobered up and unable to forgive himself. even in court guy was such a mess the relatives had to come and speak to him to say they understood the situation and had forgiven him.

i bet at some time most of us have lost control on the ice. It's easy to get angry because of the senseless loss of four lives, even more so coz they are cyclists, but on the other hand the guy who was driving is not a monster, he's just made the biggest mistake of his life which has had such unfortunate consequences. i'm sure when he got up that morning he didn't plan on killing four people.

i hope the families can find it in their hearts to forgive him, as any bitterness would be pointless and only end up tearing them apart.

likewise, i hope one day the driver can come to terms with what he has done. a prison sentence would not have brought them back, however a sentence should have been passed for two reasons
(1) It would have eased the pain for relatives
(2) It would probably have helped the driver come to terms with what has happened if he felt he had been punished (drunk driver above asked for no leniency as he felt so guilty).

my brother got knocked of his motorbike when he was younger. spent a week in traction and about 4 weeks before he was out of hospital. about 4 days after it happened the guy who did it came to the house. i was the only one in. i'll never forget his face. he looked ashen, like he hadn't slept all of his life, and i actually felt sorry for him. he burst out crying when i told him my brother was going to make a full recovery. i just didn't know what to do with him standing on my doorstep! you could tell he was truly sorry and in a state of shock and i bet to this day he's still on the look out for bikes. of course, if my brother was killed i would obviously think differently, but i realise that it's not like he set out that day to do such damage.

on the other hand, i get really angry with careless drivers who come too close to me, so obviously i feel a full prison sentence would deter others driving like idiots.
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rgisme · June 2007

It was discussed in the forums after it happened. It was a tragedy, probably avoidable, the cyclists' misfortune was to be on that bit of road at that particular moment in time. Sh*t happens, as the saying goes. As to the driver's comments, I think most people would have preferred it if he'd have been the one to die and not the cyclists too!

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Im glad I never learn't to drive in my younger years because I would probably make the same stupid mistakes other people make.

I.E Driving to fast.

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dondare · June 2007

Why even set out to drive a car with three bald tyres? Didn't he know? Didn't he care? The council have been criticized for not gritting the roads. But the fact is that the roads were ungritted and the driver should have been that much slower and more careful.
It is not acceptable that the roads are so dangerous. These tragedies happen because driving offences simply aren't taken seriously. If they were then 3 bald tyres and driving too fast for the conditions would incur a much higher penalty than this bloke paid, irrespective of the deaths.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Did he get done for bald tyres?

Will he get a jail sentence?

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davidmam · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare

Why even set out to drive a car with three bald tyres? Didn't he know? Didn't he care? The council have been criticized for not gritting the roads. But the fact is that the roads were ungritted and the driver should have been that much slower and more careful.
It is not acceptable that the roads are so dangerous. These tragedies happen because driving offences simply aren't taken seriously. If they were then 3 bald tyres and driving too fast for the conditions would incur a much higher penalty than this bloke paid, irrespective of the deaths.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you meant to say 'that the traffic on the roads is so dangerous'. The road itself was hazardous - other witnesses speak of seeing frozen puddles by the side of the road. A sentence would focus other peoples minds. Prison is there to serve society, and it can do that in more than one way.

..d

Fat bloke on a bike

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

It was more hazardous than usual with the ice.

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purpleR · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Prison is there to serve society, and it can do that in more than one way.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">*draws in air through teeth*
that seems like a bit of a slippery slope to me. I have had mental tussles with myself about this one (please ref. Edward Norton beating himself up in Fight Club for visuals). Maybe a wee bit heavy handed?

I say, give this 'accident' as much publicity as possible. Keep people mindful of the what can happen through carelessness. This guy already expressed the desire to die - from this information I'd say he has a conscience and I'm unsure what would be achieved by sending him to jail. He already has his sentence. And yes, I know, the bereaved relatives have theirs too.

OTOH, I would support heavier penalties for drivers who exercise disregard for the safety of others through any means of driving. Back to Edward Norton punching himself in the face...

As a learner driver myself, the best piece of advice I've been given yet is, "always remember you're driving a death trap".

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

What has been said many times is,in the wrong hands cars are lethal weapons.

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ScottDougall · June 2007

im sure this bloke is really a nice normal guy who drives to his job like almost everyone else - but - every day at least one car will get too close, drive too fast and in general show contempt for my presence on the road so it makes me really angry to see that this driver, nice though he may be, is getting off with an insubstantial fine, one that in no way seems to weigh the consequences of his stupidity

on the other side of the argument - what were the club thinking going out on a run in such icy conditions - they too have to accept that this was placing them in a risky situation

...its the legs that count !

rustychisel · June 2007

Now, stop.. think... they were out riding as they wanted, getting in no-one's way not posing any danger. I daresay they were aware of the dangers of ice, but not so the driver. There is no evidence they acted improperly...

I suspect you've just written the stupidest thing of your life. I do hope you wise up.

Oh, and another thing. Do women place themselves in danger by their manner of dress? Should they automatically take responsibility to for where they are, and when? The analogy is mine, your inference repugnant.

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domtyler · June 2007

The driver clearly feels true remorse for what happened, I think the word Accident in this case is more appropriate than any other.

As for the bald tyres, the tread is only there for wet roads so would not have been a factor in the accident. Having driven a car myself, and gone too fast for the conditions many times I know how easy it is to do, it takes real discipline to drive carefully and stick to the limits all the time. It is only spending a lot of time as a vulnerable road user that you realise just how dangerous these machines can be. It is just unfortunate that this guy had to learn the hard way and four innocent people had to lose their lives, one was just fourteen years old.

I would definitely agree that some form of punishment was necessary for all the above reasons, however personally I would have thought some kind of community service more appropriate in this case.

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Dudu · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by davidmam

I think you meant to say 'that the traffic on the roads is so dangerous'. The road itself was hazardous - other witnesses speak of seeing frozen puddles by the side of the road. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Surely you mean driving without regard to the conditions on this road was hazardous?

It is possible to drive (and cycle) safely on ice. But not at anything like 50mph.

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snorri · June 2007

Good posting there Buggi, you describe well the quandary that many of us find ourselves in with this type of tragedy.

cupofteacp · June 2007

Cars are weapons, they kill people, more than guns or any other crime, and yet we just sit here and accept it, 90ish people will have been killed on our roads this week, and we just ignore it.
How many people died in London bombing and look at the reaction, how many people died in 9 11 about 1 1/2 years worth of road deaths.

Cars are a "broken" form of transport and yet nobody wants to face up to it, a bit like the smoking, it's only taken how many years to get a ban in public places but you can still by fags, they Kill

I think all cars should have a 10" spike fitted to the steering wheel that might help all motorists concentrate a little harder.

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ScottDougall · June 2007

not stupid at all - if the conditions were that icy we cyclists are aware of how stupid other road users can be however able we may feel at being able to cope we dont use the roads in isolation so there is some responsibility to be accepted in deciding to go out if as it seems the risks were clear

you are entitled, of course, to disagree with my point of view - dont get me wrong though Im not excusing the driver in any way

...its the legs that count !

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

He can either not give a **** for what happened which is normal or he could show remorse for what happened to get a lighter sentence or he could be genuine.

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dondare · June 2007

I'm sure his remorse is genuine but unsafe driving needs to be taken much more seriously than this.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ScottDougall

not stupid at all - if the conditions were that icy we cyclists are aware of how stupid other road users can be however able we may feel at being able to cope we dont use the roads in isolation so there is some responsibility to be accepted in deciding to go out if as it seems the risks were clear

you are entitled, of course, to disagree with my point of view - dont get me wrong though Im not excusing the driver in any way

...its the legs that count !
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not really; even in the worst conditions accidents of this type are rare: the risks are actually quite small.
Nevertheless, the risks could, and should, be smaller still, and tough action against unsafe drivers would help with this.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

<Dondare> Definetly.Thank god I don't drive.I'd probably be another muppet.

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monty_dogcp · June 2007

I think we all need to take responsibility for our actions - for the guys out cycling that morning, they were probably aware of the ice but considered the risk of slipping on the ice and maybe getting a bruise or too. Yes it would hurt, but the risk to others was minimal. Unfortunately, for the driver of the car with bald tyres, going too fast he wasn't taking responsibility for his own actions and although unwittingly has inflicted suffering on others. OK, he's showing remorse, but driving a car is a privelege and by his actions he's demonstrated his failure to take responsibility for his actions - I'd take his license away purely for that reason and wish the courts would do the same more often for the same reason.

jakob_s · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cupoftea

Cars are weapons, they kill people, more than guns or any other crime, and yet we just sit here and accept it, 90ish people will have been killed on our roads this week, and we just ignore it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We better hurry up and ban hospitals then. More people die there than anywhere else!

FGG #2384

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Cars are ok.It's some of the people who are driving them who just haven't got the capability.

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cupofteacp · June 2007

This driver set of knowing his tires were defective, I find it amazing they concluded they had no part to play in the accident.

I guess if he'd been drunk or overly tired that would have been ok too.

Drive a car, kill people, get away with it, what a lovely country we live in.

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Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Technically he should be jailed.

Probably get a 500 pound fine though.

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pzycoman · June 2007

IMO he should be executed, publically. Why does he have a "right to life", whereas the innocent people he ran over dont? (Iv never understood that part of the "law" and what campaigners say)

He took a bunch of lifes, deliberatly. He was speeding, he was driving on bald tyres. Those are DELIBERATE actions, its not an "accident" (leaving the oven on at home is an accident).

RichardD · June 2007

The first problem I see here is that the faults- bald tyres and speeding- do not usually cause any trouble. The average driver learns then that these and other objectively dangerous behaviours are ok. No-one was hurt and the driver wasn't nicked. So what would fix that? I suppose much more aggressive policing of vehicles and drivers, with the aim of modifying driver behaviour, would do it.

Then the trivial fine for having bald tyres is seen as just that, and not a shockingly poor punishment for killing someone.

So, we pay slightly higher taxes to fund policing but magically find that NHS is slightly better because it's not wasting resources on RTAs. A driver will get used to the idea that at least once or twice a year he'll get pulled over for a random spot check of license, insurance and road-worthness. The driver will regularly see some schmuck pulled over for a long lecture from a policeman in an unmarked vehicle about how useless that manouever was and the imposition of either points or a driver education course, and take care that it's not him next time. I guess cyclists RLJing and zig-zagging down the wrong side of the road will get their share to.

We might be able to live with it.

The second problem is much trickier. It is the attitude (ignorance) of most of us that driving a car is an absolute necessity for modern life, which fills the roads to the extent that even careful well-regulated drivers cause many deaths and injuries. It is the attitude (accomodation) that cars aren't actually dangerous, which causes casually dangerous behaviour. It the attitude (selfishness) that the individual's need to drive their vehicle comes ahead of everyone else's need to go about their daily lives, which prevents normal human consideration.

Regulation of behaviour is a second best solution to immaturity.

Sorry for the ramble.

mazcp · June 2007

What's this got to do with commuting? Was the driver on his way to work?

jakob_s · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pzycoman
He took a bunch of lifes, deliberatly. He was speeding, he was driving on bald tyres. Those are DELIBERATE actions, its not an "accident" (leaving the oven on at home is an accident).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Knee-jerk-o-rama!

FGG #2384

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ScottDougall

im sure this bloke is really a nice normal guy who drives to his job like almost everyone else - but - every day at least one car will get too close, drive too fast and in general show contempt for my presence on the road so it makes me really angry to see that this driver, nice though he may be, is getting off with an insubstantial fine, one that in no way seems to weigh the consequences of his stupidity
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And thats the crux of the matter. If you behave dangerously on the road then it is more likely you'll hurt someone. If we as a society allow people to get away with behaving dangerously then it is entirely predictable that more people will get hurt than really should.

Dangerous overtaking, going too fast around corners, bombing on through amber lights, its going on all of the time, and it isn't taken seriously. The tragic extension of that is that when 'accidents' happen due to this dangerous behaviour, its treated as an unfortunate event rather than an avoidable calamity.

And for as long as people are allowed to get away with this kind of filthy act, it'll continue.

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Very sad what can I say?

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