Lefty characteristics

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

The problem here is that there's two broad kinds of left (see the other thread), just as there's two broad kinds of right.

1. The conservative right. Characterised by a belief in: tradition, nation, hierarchy, (natural, moral or religious) order, security, the military, 'common sense', 'knowing your place.' The government exists to maintain social order and defend national and class interests (which are to everyone's benefit whether they know it or not). Worst tendencies: racism, fascism.

2. The (neo-)liberal right. Characterised by a belief in: social mobility, individual choice, the free market, low taxes, small government. The government only exists to facilitate free markets. Worst tendencies: selfishness, survival of the strong, extreme social inequality.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

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Well, I'm definitely No.2 - without the nasty bit on the end![:D][;)]

Now can we have your lefty analysis?

(BTW I think you've got your threads mixed up!)

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

The problem here is that there's two broad kinds of left (see the other thread), just as there's two broad kinds of right.

1. The conservative right. Characterised by a belief in: tradition, nation, hierarchy, (natural, moral or religious) order, security, the military, 'common sense', 'knowing your place.' The government exists to maintain social order and defend national and class interests (which are to everyone's benefit whether they know it or not). Worst tendencies: racism, fascism.

2. The (neo-)liberal right. Characterised by a belief in: social mobility, individual choice, the free market, low taxes, small government. The government only exists to facilitate free markets. Worst tendencies: selfishness, survival of the strong, extreme social inequality.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

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10. A tendency to get sidetracked into lengthy analysis when everyone else just wants to trade insults. [;)]

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

I've just put these the right way round - you both posted before I'd altered them...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

There's broadly two kinds of left:

1. Libertarian left. Characterised by belief in: natural altruism, no state / hierarchy, small-scale / localism, anti-military etc. Worst tendencies: anti-scientific, anti-rational.
...

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While recognsing that this group exists, I'm not sure it covers all type s of the libertarian left, at least at the extreme end. I'm thinking of those like the Living Marxists who seem to be so far left that they've gone round the universe to emerge on the loony right. They claim to be pro science, in a very materialist and utilitarian sense, and anti environmentalist: it is human destiny to use science to dominate the natural environment etc etc. Though of course this tends to make them anti-science with respect to things like climate change...

sylvanus · June 2007

1) Bitterness and envy

2) Distrust and even dislike for human difference and achievement

3) A love of control and uniformity

ankev1 · June 2007

Possessing the instincts of a shepherd .....

With respect to anybody who dares to think independently of their view i.e. round them all up put them in pens (aka gulags) and kill them.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

While recognsing that this group exists, I'm not sure it covers all type s of the libertarian left, at least at the extreme end. I'm thinking of those like the Living Marxists who seem to be so far left that they've gone round the universe to emerge on the loony right. They claim to be pro science, in a very materialist and utilitarian sense, and anti environmentalist: it is human destiny to use science to dominate the natural environment etc etc. Though of course this tends to make them anti-science with respect to things like climate change...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Maybe they're just stoopid?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

There's broadly two kinds of left:

1. Libertarian left. Characterised by belief in: natural altruism, no state / hierarchy, small-scale / localism, anti-military etc. Worst tendencies: anti-scientific, anti-rational.

2. Communist left. Characterised by belief in: state control, common property, large scale / transnationalism, scientific progress and management. Worst tendencies: totalitarianism, loss of individuality.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nope. I don't fit into one of these, either...

"Natural altruism"? that's a good one [:D]

It's social pressure that will make people behave properly in the rationally organised world.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

cuddy duck · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
Let me be the first contributor. [;)]
1. Absolutely certainty that one is correct all the time.
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I'm very nearly absolutely certain that this is grammatically incorrect.
Though being a good democrat I'm happy to defer to the majority view.

There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....

Unknown · June 2007

I came out as a libertarian leftie, and whilst it is probably the best of the four choices given, I would describe myself more as a libertarian environmentalist with some fair trade leanings, in that most of my 'left' wing tendencies are there as a consequence of my 'green' beliefs and desire to treat others fairly.

On the 8th day God made a bicycle, and he saw that it was good. (actually personally he thought it was his best invention yet)

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
1. Absolutely certainty that one is correct all the time.
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zimzum42

2: The idea that one is in fact rather more intelligent than the rest of the population seems to be a pinko favourite....
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<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

Pomposity
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Anyone else reminded of simoncp?

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

Chris James · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

There's broadly two kinds of left:

1. Libertarian left. Characterised by belief in: natural altruism, no state / hierarchy, small-scale / localism, anti-military etc. Worst tendencies: anti-scientific, anti-rational.
...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
While recognsing that this group exists, I'm not sure it covers all type s of the libertarian left, at least at the extreme end. I'm thinking of those like the Living Marxists who seem to be so far left that they've gone round the universe to emerge on the loony right. They claim to be pro science, in a very materialist and utilitarian sense, and anti environmentalist: it is human destiny to use science to dominate the natural environment etc etc. Though of course this tends to make them anti-science with respect to things like climate change...
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Actually Living Marxism and Spiked is mostly written by former members of the Revolutionary Communist Party and so would fit into the second category listed.

I Presume FM is referring to anarcho-syndicalists when he describes group 1.

Chris James · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

Left wing views tend to be motivated by a concern for your fellow humans and a desire to do something practical to assist them.

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8. A constant claim to be on the moral high ground and acting out of the best of motives.
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A claim to be motivated by something other than grasping self interest.

Chris James · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

Left wing views tend to be motivated by a concern for your fellow humans and a desire to do something practical to assist them.

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Whether they want it or not!

Mummy knows best!
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That is why I said 'assist', rather than dictate. A Leftist is concerned to HELP people reach their potential, not do it for them. The right appears to concern itself with personal enrichment believing that increasing prosperity will take the poor along with them.

Mrs Thatcher was one of the keenest to dicate to people what they should think, how they should live their lives etc but no-one would call her left wing. It may suit your prejudices to believe that left wing = controlling state but in fact authoritarianism can occur on both the left and the right.

Noodley · June 2007

I did that test thing before and it only confirmed what I already know - I am considerably better than you all. [;)]

Fnaar · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

I'm apparently quite left wing now ! I didn't used to be, but I did that questionnaire on www.politicalcompass.org , and I scored -4.63 on economic left/right and about -1.0 on libertarian / authoritarian. So I'm almost a third of the way to being ghandi. I used to be right in the middle.
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Hey, I'm almost spot on Ghandi! Cool....I'm going to wear a bedsheet and sandals!

No, Dougal, that baby elephant is far away! [:D]

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

Left wing views tend to be motivated by a concern for your fellow humans and a desire to do something practical to assist them.

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That's if you're RICH and left wing. If you're poor, then left wing views can be interpreted as a concern for yourself and a feeling that it's not fair that others have got more than you have.

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fnaar

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

I'm apparently quite left wing now ! I didn't used to be, but I did that questionnaire on www.politicalcompass.org , and I scored -4.63 on economic left/right and about -1.0 on libertarian / authoritarian. So I'm almost a third of the way to being ghandi. I used to be right in the middle.
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Hey, I'm almost spot on Ghandi! Cool....I'm going to wear a bedsheet and sandals!

No, Dougal, that baby elephant is far away! [:D]
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Right ok , a challenge for a boring friday afternoon. Who can be the first to identify the 'correct' set of answers in order to 'become' ghandi [:D]

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fnaar

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

I'm apparently quite left wing now ! I didn't used to be, but I did that questionnaire on www.politicalcompass.org , and I scored -4.63 on economic left/right and about -1.0 on libertarian / authoritarian. So I'm almost a third of the way to being ghandi. I used to be right in the middle.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hey, I'm almost spot on Ghandi! Cool....I'm going to wear a bedsheet and sandals!

No, Dougal, that baby elephant is far away! [:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Right ok , a challenge for a boring friday afternoon. Who can be the first to identify the 'correct' set of answers in order to 'become' ghandi [:D]

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Urine tastes delicious.

Mr Celine · June 2007

Given the faintest whiff of power lefties start fighting each other.

What is grey and comes in pints?

Chris James · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

Left wing views tend to be motivated by a concern for your fellow humans and a desire to do something practical to assist them.

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That's if you're RICH and left wing. If you're poor, then left wing views can be interpreted as a concern for yourself and a feeling that it's not fair that others have got more than you have.

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I disagree. The left wing poor have historically used unionsism and group action to try to achieve their ends, demonstrating a belief that they need to improve the lot of the poor as a whole. So their concern is with the poor in general and not JUST themselves (although I am sure they would like to improve their own lot at the same time too!)

If anything the people who complain abouit what others have tend to be right wing - the hatred of the immigrant taking jobs, of the person who they believe to be sponging off benefits, detesting single mothers and other people who don't fit their view of what is deserving.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mr Celine

What is grey and comes in pints?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Desert Orchid, obviously...

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

If anything the people who complain abouit what others have tend to be right wing - the hatred of the immigrant taking jobs,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmm....that may be changing. In the last year I've come across three people whose views were somewhat to the right (especially on immigration) suddenly becoming all in favour of immigration. All three have found that they can employ migrants/immigrants for less than indigineous workers and that they are excellent workers. The change in attitudes is quite remarkable.

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

The RCP don't really fit at all. They were fundementalist Marxists but with peculiar tactics that made it look like they were advocating very neo-liberal rightist politics. Whether or not those who now seem to have totally embraced this latter position are still only doing it as a tactical position, I can't tell... some of them are strongly associated with the vociferous anti-environmental propaganga of 'The Great Global Warming Swindle' etc.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Chris James · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

The RCP don't really fit at all.....

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

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Certainly agree, although one of the best books I have read in the last few years was 'The Point is to Change It' or something like that. Anyway, published by Living Marxism mag.

It appears to use left wing language to describe what could be viewed as a right wing reactionary agenda. Still, food for thought. I quite enjoy reading Spiked! occasionally, but have serious reservations about the motivation of some of the columns. I remember being stopped in Bristol by a Socialist Worker and chatting. I found we agreed on a fair bit, especially what we viewed as the ills of society, but was pretty appalled when they started about how we needed a 'cadre' (who, other than SW uses this sort of language) to lead the masses to power.

Leaving aside the fact that the masses definitely weren't going to be led anywhere by this spotty Herbert, it just emphasised to me that I am bit of an anarchist by inclination as my view of leftism has no room for dictats and gulags!

Chris James · June 2007

Oh yeah, I suspect that quite a few of the arch right wingers on here would quite enjoy reading Spiked! online too. Maybe that's why they changed from Living Marxism? The name was putting the unsuspecting off? Spiked sounds much funkier and less dogmatic.

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

I've had plenty of experience of recruiters of both RCP and SWP persuasions... and both are strongly reminiscent of religious cults in the way they act(ed) and talk(ed). There's things members just can't say or discuss with non-members, hidden agendas, and the RCP certainly used to go for the whole cultish 'flirty-fishing' method of getting attractive young members to try to recruit others with the hint (or even active use) of something else (and when I was young and naughty, I did once pretend to go along with it for the 'something else'...)

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

Oh yeah, I suspect that quite a few of the arch right wingers on here would quite enjoy reading Spiked! online too. Maybe that's why they changed from Living Marxism? The name was putting the unsuspecting off? Spiked sounds much funkier and less dogmatic.
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I've nearly fallen off my chair - and I'm the sort of bloke who wouldn't bat an eyelid if redders showed me his Conservative Party membership card! I've got Spiked on my favourites list and thoroughly enjoy the irreverent libertarian line it takes. Was it really once called Living Marxism or is this a wind up?

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

Yes, Spiked rose from the ashes of Living Marxism and all that denial-of-Serb-death-camps type of loveliness...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

Yes, Spiked rose from the ashes of Living Marxism and all that denial-of-Serb-death-camps type of loveliness...

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I take it that Living Marxism was the denier of Serb death camps publication? The tone of Spiked is much more of the we'll-tell-you what-the-mainstream- media-doesn't-like-to-tell-you-ilk.

Lefty characteristics

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