Doping in Football

sylvanus · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sylvanus - if you are going to write disparagingly of other people's educational standards it might be wise not to litter your own posts with schoolboy howlers in spelling and grammar<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am sorry if my grammar or spellchecking are poor but at least I don't go around kicking s*** out of innocent people! Actually typing in this letter box without a spellchecker is not easy!

I'm not criticizing their background or their lack of opportunity but their behaviour. You of course think they are beyond criticism since the working class Englishman is a saint and every fault of his is actually not his responsibility but society's. I find it depressing that post Shirley Williams its harder for a bright working class child to get a good education but even so its no excuse for this deliberate lowest common denominator behaviour. Behaving like an idiot and mocking intelligence and learning are part of this "mockney" culture we now seem to flaunt where any display of brains or sophistication is ridiculed. Where are the Beckenbauers or Zidanes of English football? What's wrong with tossing sardines at the tabloids? Why do English football fans look so fat, stupid and violent and why do they behave so appallingly?

Violence has the same relationship to football as it did to fascism - its the warp through which the culture of the game is woven, A few weeks ago I heard educated company directors giggling about the "ruck" at Chelsea the night before - the glamorous appeal of blood and violence. We now have a society where the educated are ashamed of themselves and ape the apes. A love of football is vital to that boorish cred.

pumpkincp · June 2007

"I don't go around kicking s*** out of innocent people" - no, neither do I and neither do 99% of football fans.

"You of course think they are beyond criticism" - where did I say that? If there is a single sentence in any of my posts that could lead even the most warped Mail-reading Bear of Very Little Brain to infer that this is my view, please point it out.

"Post Shirley Williams" - well, I received my education in the state system post Shirley Williams and I don't seem to have your difficulties with the English language. I do apologise if, as appears entirely possible, you suffer from dyslexia, but I have to say that, reading through your posts, I am astonished - which word(s) would you have needed a spellchecker for?

"Violence has the same relationship to football as it did to fascism" - this is beneath contempt. Indeed, after a comment like that, I am not sure I can any longer offer you even my pity.

Finally, what bearing does any of your drivel have on the question of alleged doping in football - which this thread is purportedly about?

pumpkincp · June 2007

Actually, that dyslexia reference was cheap and unnecessary.

I'm not going to try to weasel my way out of my faux pas with an edit, but I would apologise unreservedly to anyone who does suffer from dyslexia and was offended.

Unknown · June 2007

Can we move this to Soapbox please?

Its getting a little dull. Footballers are no dumber than cyclists, they just have more money and attention.

Who cares about doping in other sports? This forum is supposed to be about cycling.

TdG

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

I cannot believe Zidane has been used as an example above! Maybe you didn't see the World Cup Final?

I have followed football all over Europe and have yet to get into a fight, throw a chair through a window or rampage about asking "who won the war, anyway?" or any of the other lazy cliches spouted by people with no idea what they're talking about.

I am not saying that football is without it's problems. Doping is not one of them and it's about time cycling fans in this country stopped looking to football in the hope that it will in some way take the focus of the massive problems cycling has.

I also wish the branding of anyone who dares to defend football on here as some sort of lager swilling, leisure wearing yob with no mind of their own would stop.

Ste_S · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pumpkin
Sorry, I don't buy that either. BBC coverage so angered Sir Alex he no longer speaks to them and so angered the FA that they have stripped them of the rights to the FA Cup and England internationals from next season. The BBC investigation into transfer irregularities was broadcast despite threats to sue the corporation - and has since resulted in at least one arrest, with the prediction of more to come. It doesn't sound to me as though they - to single out just one news organisation - are in anyone's pocket. Oh, and the enormous wealth of one of the richest clubs in the world didn't do much to save them from demotion to the Italian Second Division, did it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The BBC is probably the only broadcaster who could do something like that though, due to the way it's funded. You wouldn't imagine Sky for instance doing something similar.
I'd argue that the Italian thing has a lot more to do with politics (Hi Silvio !) than anything else.

cswebbo · June 2007

I thought this was a Cycling forum ?
Lets get OUR sport in order first, before we go slinging mud at Footballers.
Whether football has a problem or not, does not change the fact that OUR pro sport is in the sewers. It is now an embarresment and i would not be surprised if big name TDF sponsors and Eurosport etc. pull out.

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

OUR sport?

It's time people realised that it is possible to be a fan of more than one sport.

Unknown · June 2007

Yes but not everyone here is a football fan. The common interest is cycling.

The givaway is in the forum name.

TdG

Langenberg · June 2007

Eeehh, Timoid is probably right. Not looking for a day and suddenly a thread has become a bit of a beast.

I'd move it if I knew how to, maybe the moderator can.

In case anyone is interested in the background of this story, here is a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenethylline

=====================
Pas de progrŠs sans peigne.

term1te · June 2007

I partially read this in the papers here yesterday. I think Captagon is Phenethylline. The stories I've heard about UK football in the 70s involve a couple of pints and a good fry-up, to build you up before a game. This could explain the differences in success between the English and German national teams at the time. Stimulant drug, or two pints of mild and a bag of chips...

___________________
Displayed with 100% recycled electrons

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

Doesn't explain the difference in the success of club teams in Europe in the 70's & 80's.

Timoid - I realise this is a cycling forum - so why all the attacks on other sports. I certainly don't start that.

squiredcp · June 2007

At least cycling seems to be taking the problem seriously. Just saw this article, and it made me laugh. Ban the guy, who probably only fights once a year, for a year, and fine him $2,500. He probably only made a few million off the last fight...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/boxing/6751023.stm

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

Can we stop having a pop at other sports?

Yes, cycling is trying to clean up but the competitors themselves don't seem to be.
That's what the focus on this board should be rather than finger pointing at sports people don't like.

Unknown · June 2007

Sorry but anybody who knows anything at all about football understands that Italian fans are far worse then the English . Also , The Turks are pretty notorious .

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by offthepace

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Spawn of Cabbie

Your assertion that football culture on the continent is less violent is laughable.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So that's why Liverpool fans have been branded as the worst in Europe is it?The scenes of English fans "enjoying the atmosphere" before big matches abroad, when shown on the news, regulary make me ashamed to be English. I just pray that the host countries don't think we are all like that

Born to be half wheeled
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/n ... index.aspx

walkercp · June 2007

Ok let me pick upo and run with this.

What advantage would a footballer get from taking drugs to start with? Gained speed - Bigger Strength - Longer Endurance. Now tell me if I am wrong but isn't football a game of skill and intelect having to outwit your oppenent? and am I right in saying that Drugs of some extent can damage the brain so as to reduce your skill and Judgement?
I don't believe that there are many player's in the big leagues that take drugs. not with the Technology and information we know on what drugs do what toi your body. Why would someone earning œ50k a week risk that? Now the lower leagues I can understand, the players want results fast to get noticed to get to the big leagues only to falter in 5 years time and go backwards.
So if we take into account with everything that has been said, am I to beleive that rugby players take steroids to make them more beefy in defence?
(Do cricket players inject themselves with caffine to keep themselves awake? :-) )

Rhino's are the new Elephant

squiredcp · June 2007

The fact is that ANY person in ANY sport will be able to gain some sort of advantage from drugs.

The fitness of a footballer will vary, particularly taking recovery from injuries into account. Drugs can definitely help there. At the end of a season when you are jaded and mentally tired stimulants would help.

If you look at the distribution of goals in games, there are far more in the second half - as people are tired, so there are more mistakes. Thus having drugs that increase your aerobic and anaerobic capacity will make a huge difference.

Anyone who thinks football is a game of skill and outwitting their opponents is mistaken as far as I'm concerned. Speed and strength are more important than ever (if you aren't fast and strong you will not get into the Premiership, no matter how skillful you are).

One thing that gets me though is the constant focus on drugs in sport. As far as I'm concerned, all forms of cheating are as bad as each other. A footballer diving when he wasn't touched can win him a penalty that might win a championship or cup. Only last week Alistair Cook didn't walk after getting an edge. I think he went onto score 100 in a match that England won by less than 100. I would treat those forms of cheating in exactly the same way as taking drugs, as in many ways they can have a far greater influence than popping a couple of pills.

DaveyL · June 2007

I can't believe cricket has suckered me into this but...

Cook did not cheat by not walking. It is up to the umpires to decide whether a batsman is out or not, not the player himself. Batsmen can walk if they want - it's up to them, it's not written in the rules that they must walk, if they think they are out, is it? Ergo it is not cheating. There are many instances where the batsman is wrongly given out - should he then refuse to walk? No, umpire's decision is final, the players shouldn't get involved.

Gilchrist can make a big thing about how he walks when out, as his team are usually 500-5 at the time :-)

Bringing it back to other sports, I would have though that any sport where strength or endurance give you an advantage, there will be people taking drugs to benefit. The more money involved in a sport, surely the greater the incentive. People often say there's no skill at all in cycling, but riding in a pack at 30 mph, anticipating and dodging crashes, and descending mountain passes at 60 mph (to pick but three) all require a lot of skill!

Unknown · June 2007

Walker , are you for real ?
Of course some Rugby Players take steroids .
Do you not think endurance is important in football ?
Ever heard of Rio Ferdinand ?
Juventus and EPO ?

http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/n ... index.aspx

walkercp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Squaggles

Walker , are you for real ?
Of course some Rugby Players take steroids .
Do you not think endurance is important in football ?
Ever heard of Rio Ferdinand ?
Juventus and EPO ?

http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/n ... index.aspx
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So your telling me that players like Ronaldinho, Gerrard, Henry are good players coz they have the ability to run around more than everyone else? No not at all, they have the ability to read the game, know where to be at the rimght time at the right place. lets take player's with plenty or strength over skill, Heskey, Akinbiyi, Baptiste, these players have all the strength and not such great Skill. A great player can be just as good as one with ample amount of endurance

Baby Elephants - free from artificial flavourings, colourings and preservatives

Unknown · June 2007

Its not really as simple as that though walker and you seem like you know that. Truly great players have it all.
but a very skilful player with increased endurance due to magic lotions and potions could become a truly great player
'coughs' Maradona 'coughs

Mleh Mleh Mleh

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

Maradona did not achieve all he did in the 80's because of drugs, more despite them and also epitomises the real drug problem in football.

Houllier · June 2007

"Drugs of some extent can damage the brain so as to reduce your skill and Judgement?"

Top footballers are also instructed by their coaches not to masturbate as it damages their eyesight.

---\*/
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--(+)(+)
You'll never ride alone

st pierre · June 2007

Do footballers take EPO? We have no idea the FA doesn't test for it. How often do the "Vampire" drug testers arrive in the early hours at team hotels or homes to test the players a la TDF? Never. How often are top players tested for all substances PED & recreational? Practically never. What really amazes me is that pro cyclists do dope as they do considering the peanuts that they earn. An average wage in the peleton (top 200'ish riders in THE WORLD is about œ60K. Take out top 10% earners and this falls to around œ35K. The average career lasts approx 7 years at this level and then a job in a LBS on minimum wage if they're lucky. Compare this to the average wage in the premiership - 300 regular first team players average wage œ40K PER WEEK. Is itpossible that young men with little education(lives devoted to football from 10 years old)and surrounded by shark like agents and hangers-on could ever be induced/duped/forced into taking substances that would maintain/enhance their earning potential for all concerned? NEVER?

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now. I still don't believe that English football has a problem with it.
However, thinking about certain incidents changed my view a little bit. And then I saw something last night that wedged a great big chunk of doubt in my mind.

Unknown · June 2007

Which was?

Unknown · June 2007

go on. what was it?

Mleh Mleh Mleh

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

I was wathching Engalnd U21's v Italy U21's. In the first half an hour, England should have been about 5-0 up. It was only down to the uslessness and general wallyness of Leroy Lita that they were not.
Italy gradually crept back into the game, which was played under a roof, making it quite sticky a pitch level.

Anyway, in the last ten minutes the England players were absolutely knackered. Not just a bit tired but out on their feet, couldn't make clearances properly and making basic mistakes. The Italians on the other hand were still running very strongly. One of them had a shot from about 40 yards that nearly went in - they were still making the same technical mistakes as the were in the first half but now the England palyers couldn't make the most of them.

SO what could be the reason for this? Could it be that the England players have had long hard seasons in the Premier league - most of them are first choices, while the Italians are yet to make the break through?
Could it be that the English "run-around-a-lot" style only works until they get tired and then the class of the other side comes to the fore?

Or could it be something else?

Unknown · June 2007

Chris Waddle always looked knackered but then could turn it on every now and then. [:)]

Last night (not that i saw it) could have been down to loads of things. dehydration, not enough fuel, bad tactics, subs ruining the flow, conflicting messages from coaches etc OR it could it be put down to 'something else'

I'd like to think that the majority of the sport i watch is clean and down to skill, talent, natural ability, hard work and a slice of luck. and to suggest that 'any' achievements i witness are down to 'something else' is a rather dark place i don't want to go [V]

Mleh Mleh Mleh

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

But then you start to think of the European Cup winners - Milan (although they concentrated on this because their punishment for corruption meant no chance of a league win).

And the very average Italian side who won the World Cup - all of whom play in Italy.

Italian football stinks to high heaven anyway - as was proven last year - why should it just stop at corruption?

I think Steve Austin makes a good point. In cycling, someone who was slow, but is now fast - alarm bells start to ring.

In football there are so many other factors that make that sort of improvement less marked and less easy to spot.

Doping in Football

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