Defence of the UK

Unknown · June 2007

Well, in fact, the subject under debate was the usefulness of the UK's armed forces. But never mind.

Capitalism is going to result in the destruction of the planet. Being rich won't help us then. I suppose we might need the armed forces to hold back the tide of refugees from countries which are no longer inhabitable.

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Capitalism kills, fact.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could you please apply this analysis to Zimbabwe, which under a capitalist economy was able to feed its people and export food, but in a generation has gone to an economic basket case with an average life expectancy of about 36?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But Patrick, capitalism in Zimbabwe was never overthrown, but it is currently in severe economic crisis there. Thug dictator Mugabe, who uses a lot of anti imperialist anti colonialist language, mainly to retain what little popular support he may have, may appear to be threateningly 'socialist' from your perspective, but the reality is one of global capitalism continuing to dominate in Zimbabwe.

Perhaps your concern is for what may happen to the wealthy white minority land owners who are increasingly assailed by Mugabe's rhetorical stance in relation to land reform? If so perhaps you should consider supporting the democratic and trade union movements from 'below' that have a real prospect of eventually ousting him.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

If so perhaps you should consider supporting the democratic and trade union movements from 'below' that have a real prospect of eventually ousting him.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Fair comment redders. I certainly wish the trade union movements could get Mugabe out. What has disgusted me totally was not the nationalisation of the farms but the fact that they were dished out to Mugabe's mates who let them deteriorate into rack and ruin. It's the sheer waste of it all that appals me.

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs
...
But Patrick, capitalism in Zimbabwe was never overthrown, but it is currently in severe economic crisis there. Thug dictator Mugabe, who uses a lot of anti imperialist anti colonialist language, mainly to retain what little popular support he may have, may appear to be threateningly 'socialist' from your perspective, but the reality is one of global capitalism continuing to dominate in Zimbabwe.
...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
redcogs, the idea that any kind of market economy is functioning in Zimbabwe (or any of the other failed African states) is quite absurd. To be attractive to business a country needs political stability, the rule of law, recognition of property rights, individual freedom, a lack of corruption, freedom from excessive bureaucracy, a healthy and educated workforce etc. In short, the sort of conditions we have in the developed world and those countries in the developing world (e.g in the far east) that have been able to improve conditions for their people.

I think this illustrates one of the problems we have with our ongoing debates on this forum: it isn't wholly clear what you mean by 'capitalism' and it is even less clear what you mean by 'socialism'; not least because you keep telling us it is different from all the (failed) versions that have actually been tried... You can't simply list all the ills of the poor parts of the world, define them as capitalism and then use that to conclude that socialism is the answer!

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

and it is even less clear what you mean by 'socialism'; not least because you keep telling us it is different from all the (failed) versions that have actually been tried... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why am I reminded of the search for Higgs Boson?

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs
...
But Patrick, capitalism in Zimbabwe was never overthrown, but it is currently in severe economic crisis there. Thug dictator Mugabe, who uses a lot of anti imperialist anti colonialist language, mainly to retain what little popular support he may have, may appear to be threateningly 'socialist' from your perspective, but the reality is one of global capitalism continuing to dominate in Zimbabwe.
...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
redcogs, the idea that any kind of market economy is functioning in Zimbabwe (or any of the other failed African states) is quite absurd. To be attractive to business a country needs political stability, the rule of law, recognition of property rights, individual freedom, a lack of corruption, freedom from excessive bureaucracy, a healthy and educated workforce etc. In short, the sort of conditions we have in the developed world and those countries in the developing world (e.g in the far east) that have been able to improve conditions for their people.

I think this illustrates one of the problems we have with our ongoing debates on this forum: it isn't wholly clear what you mean by 'capitalism' and it is even less clear what you mean by 'socialism'; not least because you keep telling us it is different from all the (failed) versions that have actually been tried ... You can't simply list all the ills of the poor parts of the world, define them as capitalism and then use that to conclude that socialism is the answer!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

hey redcogs, when you've finished telling us how the lefties always win the arguments, perhaps you'd like to provide some answers to my question above? [;)]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs
...
But Patrick, capitalism in Zimbabwe was never overthrown, but it is currently in severe economic crisis there. Thug dictator Mugabe, who uses a lot of anti imperialist anti colonialist language, mainly to retain what little popular support he may have, may appear to be threateningly 'socialist' from your perspective, but the reality is one of global capitalism continuing to dominate in Zimbabwe.
...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
redcogs, the idea that any kind of market economy is functioning in Zimbabwe (or any of the other failed African states) is quite absurd. To be attractive to business a country needs political stability, the rule of law, recognition of property rights, individual freedom, a lack of corruption, freedom from excessive bureaucracy, a healthy and educated workforce etc. In short, the sort of conditions we have in the developed world and those countries in the developing world (e.g in the far east) that have been able to improve conditions for their people.

I think this illustrates one of the problems we have with our ongoing debates on this forum: it isn't wholly clear what you mean by 'capitalism' and it is even less clear what you mean by 'socialism'; not least because you keep telling us it is different from all the (failed) versions that have actually been tried ... You can't simply list all the ills of the poor parts of the world, define them as capitalism and then use that to conclude that socialism is the answer!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

hey redcogs, when you've finished telling us how the lefties always win the arguments, perhaps you'd like to provide some answers to my question above? [;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Redders has decided to find Higgs Boson first - it's easier. [;)]

Defence of the UK

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