Defence of the UK

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

I always find the left wing complaint that there has never been a socialist country to bit an insult to our collective intelligence. It's a bit like an old Nazi Gauleiter saying that we've never given fascism a proper chance. How many people have to be killed by lefty regimes before we write the idea off?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It would be interesting to hear you describe which aspects of the former soviet block, or china, or Cuba, or wherever, were socialist ankev'. Perhaps the Gulag's, replete with dissidents were in some way an expression of the collectivist democratic socially owned ideal rather than the crude instrument of class oppression?

i suspect it is easier to label something from a prejudiced position than to seek to accurately identify the true nature of a society, don't you?

Still, you could give it a shot.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

gavintc answered that succinctly. I would add: yes they may not have been socialist but every now and then another regime comes along which calls itself socialist and says "Aw go on, let us have a go." And they have a go and innocent people who dare to think differently end up dead. I've seen it happen enough to not want it to happen again. The Nazis only got one chance (rightly). The problem was that the USSR was on the winning side and this lent a degree of undeserved credibility to socialism or not-socialism.

redcogs · June 2007

A bit of a non answer ankev'. You, and others, often assert about the iniquities of 'socialism', but fail to give any examples to support your case. You will need to do better than 'straw man' type arguments if you want to get that post grad degree under the belt. Appalling laziness of analysis.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

A bit of a non answer ankev'. You, and others, often assert about the iniquities of 'socialism', but fail to give any examples to support your case. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But when we do, the reply is, "but that wasn't socialism." So, it's apparent that there's never been socialism anywhere.

ankev1 · June 2007

Redders,

I'm prepared to believe that the regimes which called themselves socialist weren't. But it's a bit like the boy who cried wolf. How often do we have to see things which allegedly start off as socialist turning into anything but? There comes a point when common sense dictates that people trading under that banner shouldn't be trusted with power.

david2 · June 2007

If you look at the growing inequalities that global capitalism seems to be giving us along with the associated poverty of 70% of the worlds population don't you ever wonder if capitalism is so great?

Millions dying daily from starvation or easily preventable illness is hardly a successful system

redcogs · June 2007

Thasalrighten ankev!

Some of us aspire to a liberated classless collectivist democratic world - a brother and sisterhood of humanity.

please look up to the stars.. ***

ankev1 · June 2007

david2,

I don't think capitalism is great and I think unfettered capitalism a la USA and increasingly UK is terrible news for most people. However you can't help but notice that it works and so IMO capitalism, bounded by morally driven laws, as determined by normal people, not ideologues, is the way ahead.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by david2

If you look at the growing inequalities that global capitalism seems to be giving us along with the associated poverty of 70% of the worlds population don't you ever wonder if capitalism is so great?

Millions dying daily from starvation or easily preventable illness is hardly a successful system
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A lot of this is caused by despotic rulers - Mugabe has presided over a country that has changed from being a food exporter to one which relies on aid. People have died of starvation in North Korea while money is spent on developing nuclear weapons.

redcogs · June 2007

ankev', capitalism works? Only in the same sense as a chocolate fireguard prevents the house being ignited.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

ankev', capitalism works? Only in the same sense as a chocolate fireguard prevents the house being ignited.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, it works in the sense of providing a higher standard of living than non capitalist systems.

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
No, it works in the sense of providing a higher standard of living than non capitalist systems.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Patrick:

Half the world - nearly three billion people - live on less than two dollars a day.
The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world's countries) is less than the wealth of the world's three richest people combined.
Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.
Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen.

Capitalisms success?

please look up to the stars.. ***

papercorn2000 · June 2007

But a la socialism, the apologists for rampant capitalism can point and say that these countries are not true capitalist economies, they are run by corrupt and decadent dictators. There are no rules to curb their excesses.
Just as the high priests of the free market would wish...

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

NThe GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world's countries) is less than the wealth of the world's three richest people combined.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well let's start by asking how many of the poorest 48 nations are democratic capitalist countries?

And then we can ask how many of the the world's three richest men are products of socialist systems?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

...Before anyone tries ascending the moral high ground, you ought to ensure it has a firm base, not one of sand intermingled with blood.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whether or not one agrees with redcogs' politics, one cannot help but admire his rhetoric!

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

...Before anyone tries ascending the moral high ground, you ought to ensure it has a firm base, not one of sand intermingled with blood.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whether or not one agrees with redcogs' politics, one cannot help but admire his rhetoric!

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He's certainly had lots of practice at spouting this sort of stuff. [:)]

david2 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

david2,

I don't think capitalism is great and I think unfettered capitalism a la USA and increasingly UK is terrible news for most people. However you can't help but notice that it works and so IMO capitalism, bounded by morally driven laws, as determined by normal people, not ideologues, is the way ahead.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The point is it doesn't work. Thats why so many millions are dying from poverty despite the best efforts of years of global captalist exploiation. Unless you consider the fact that millions are dying of poverty to be a sign of success.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

Hypthosis:
Capitialism is King

Assumptions:

Material consumption and wealth = Happiness
Social Organisations are expendable
Individuals are random re-programmable fiscal units
Higher values and long standing institutions are subordinate to world economic growth

Experiment:
Mix ingredients, bring to boil and simmer for 100 years

Criteria for evaluation:

1.Are people of the developed world on the whole becoming happier?
2.Is our World more or less united?
3.Are members of our World more or less equal?
4.Has disfunction, crime, stress, family ties, public amenities in the world increased or decreased?
5.Is the individual more or less in control of their lives?
6.Is the world going into global ecological meltdown?
7. Has conflict between peoples decreased or increased

Results
1. No
2. Less
3. Less
4. Increased
5. Less
6. yes
7. increased

Hypothesis Disproved

Tactics of denial:

1. Ignore inequality and negative effects of Capitalism by exclusive Knee-jerk Pavlovian attack on socialism/Communism (straw man)
2. Assume all those apposed to the worse effects of capitalism are Socialists/communists
3. Repeat ad neuseum

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

ankev1 · June 2007

Well I'm opposed to the worst effects of capitalism and I'm anti-socialist. Hmmm, looks like I'll collapse under the weight of my own contradictions. Hang on a minute ... damn! the whole of eastern europe, clearly not knowing what was good for it, beat me to it.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

Hypthosis:
Capitialism is King

Assumptions:

Material consumption and wealth = Happiness
Social Organisations are expendable
Individuals are random re-programmable fiscal units
Higher values and long standing institutions are subordinate to world economic growth

Experiment:
Mix ingredients, bring to boil and simmer for 100 years

Criteria for evaluation:

1.Are people of the developed world on the whole becoming happier?
2.Is our World more or less united?
3.Are members of our World more or less equal?
4.Has disfunction, crime, stress, family ties, public amenities in the world increased or decreased?
5.Is the individual more or less in control of their lives?
6.Is the world going into global ecological meltdown?
7. Has conflict between peoples decreased or increased

Results
1. No
2. Less
3. Less
4. Increased
5. Less
6. yes
7. increased

Hypothesis Disproved

Tactics of denial:

1. Ignore inequality and negative effects of Capitalism by exclusive Knee-jerk Pavlovian attack on socialism/Communism (straw man)
2. Assume all those apposed to the worse effects of capitalism are Socialists/communists
3. Repeat ad neuseum

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's quite a large straw man, you've put up there! The issue is not really the success of democracy and capitalism (funnily enough, the two often go hand in hand) but how capitalist societies deal with those who have failed to succeed.

redcogs · June 2007

Actually Patrick, capitalism is prepared to graft to any system of society, witness how it succeeded in Nazi Germany, Stalin's USSR, 'Maoist' China today etc etc.

It is false to believe that the profit system is in any way a positive attribute closely allied to 'democracy'.

It does have an extraordinary (albeit temporary) ability towards relative success in relatively benign non conflictual conditions, our current situation in the Uk gives the example i think.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Gary Askwith · June 2007

My gripe is not with (small scale) business as such more with finance or monopoly capitalism, characterized by the subordination of processes of production to the accumulation of money profits in a financial system, the establishment of large industrial cartels or monopolies......the ownership and management of industry by financiers divorced from the production process; and the development of a complex system of banking, an equity market, and corporate holdings of capital through stock ownership.

My other main opposition is to unfettered globalization (neoliberalism; laissez-faire capitalism), guided by governments and what are, in effect, quasi-governments (such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank) that are not held responsible to the populations that they govern and instead respond mostly to the interests of corporations.[}:)][xx(]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

redcogs · June 2007

hear hear Gaz!

please look up to the stars.. ***

ankev1 · June 2007

Gary,

I think I share all your concerns there. On a practical basis there's a need for some big firms because of e.g. research costs, economies of scale etc. but there's no reason why they can't be controlled. I think this could provide an opportunity for the EU to make a difference i.e. Europe is big enough to be self sufficient. If it went more isolationist and pulled the rug from under global corporations which exploit globalisation, there might be a chance. The question is; which politicians would you trust to run it? I can't think of any.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Start controlling which removes competition which would make companies less efficient which would make employees worse off/less jobs which make the average person in the country worse off and the coutry less prosperous as a whole.

And you need to keep this at country level, it really is wrong to blame Western capitalism for all the failures around the world, I think the individual countries may have had something to do with their failure.

nortones2 · June 2007

JS: monopolies and trade associations and cartels eliminate competition. Thats what do. Real competition only exists in basic economics textbooks and possibly markets comprised of small business. So, controlling might not give the results required but, competition is a fairy tale.

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Start controlling which removes competition which would make companies less efficient which would make employees worse off/less jobs which make the average person in the country worse off and the coutry less prosperous as a whole.

And you need to keep this at country level, it really is wrong to blame Western capitalism for all the failures around the world, I think the individual countries may have had something to do with their failure.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Capitalism doesn't exist in one country alone, its vicious tendrils extend everywhere. It cannot be relieved of the responsibility for global economic conditions simply because you or anyone else cannot think beyond your own garden perimeter.

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they "die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death."

That is about 210,000 children each week, or just under 11 million children under five years of age, each year.

This is the real issue confronting us. British capitalism and its (primarily English) establishment have a long record of manufacturing poverty and famine, right from from their inept and murderous handling of the mid 19th C potato crisis in Ireland until today they have used the same ugly economic justifications (echoed in your bit above) for their failures to behave like human beings rather than cold calculating murderous penny counters.

Capitalism kills, fact.

please look up to the stars.. ***

oldwelshman · June 2007

And what makes you think we would want to invade england?
I can't wait to get back to Wales [:D]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

Those welsh b@stards are just waiting for us to do that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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My winter and summer bike pics

http://oldwelshman.myphotoalbum.com

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Capitalism kills, fact.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could you please apply this analysis to Zimbabwe, which under a capitalist economy was able to feed its people and export food, but in a generation has gone to an economic basket case with an average life expectancy of about 36?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

...The issue is not really the success of democracy and capitalism (funnily enough, the two often go hand in hand) but how capitalist societies deal with those who have failed to succeed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How very short-sighted. The issue that matters is how we avoid trashing the only planet we have. Constant economic growth is not going to achieve that.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

...The issue is not really the success of democracy and capitalism (funnily enough, the two often go hand in hand) but how capitalist societies deal with those who have failed to succeed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How very short-sighted. The issue that matters is how we avoid trashing the only planet we have. Constant economic growth is not going to achieve that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you look back, you will see that the issue being debated was the poverty suffered by so many. Obviously, poverty and the environment are linked, but they are essentially separate issues.

Defence of the UK

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