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Portsmouth = 1st city with a blanket 20mph limit

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  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Having unnecessarily slow speed limits increases congestion, and that increases the time pedestrians are likely to have to wait to cross the road, which increases their likeliness to try to run across when it's not safe.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Rubbish on all counts. Please justify another ridiculous claim.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Purely the amount of scrabbling around for non-existent proof of the contrary and arm-flapping that's going on is sufficient proof that that's blatantly the case.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    The time a pedestrian waits is a function of the courtesy ( or lack of it) of the drivers using the road.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    It's nothing to do with courtesy, and everything to do with safety. When a ped is crossing the road, they typically don't wait for a car to LET them cross, they wait till there aren't any cars coming or till the only ones are sufficiently far away for them to get across before those cars will have reached the piece of road on which they are going to cross.

    cThere should be no need to run across the road<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    There shouldn't be a need, but that doesn't stop them doing it when they are impatient and there is a lot of congested traffic.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    this is an unfounded contrived assumption. At 20 mph, there is actually a smaller gap needed to cross safely than at 30mph.This would make the hypothetical running safer at 20mph!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    But given the same volume of traffic, there are likely to be more gaps if they are going at 30mph because the bunched-up convoy that were released from one set of traffic lights are going to be getting out of the way quicker - at 20mph, they are more likely to be merged in with the convoy released from the following phase of the lights, thus eliminating the all-important safety gap.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    Even if it was true, and thousands of pedestrians were running across the road, the whole point is that the lowered speed increases their survival rate!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    There's never THOUSANDS! The point is, that it's dangerous for them to get hit, and damaging if they do, whether the cars are going 20mph or 30mph. It's not going to be ok just because the cars are going at 20mph! The ideal result is to minimise the chance of them getting hit in the first place, not just to make it less damaging if they do.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>



    Besides the argument itself is unfounded... To the locals who live in these roads the 20mph is not "unnecesarily slow" it is perfectly acceptable. They are the primary stakeholders here - it is their choice how their environment should be controlled, including speed limits. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Stakeholders - bol<i></i>locks. It's the nanny state brigade that are to blame for this, the penpushers in council offices that like to think up ever more draconian methods of inflicting their meddling ways on the motorist.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    It is the transient drivers who feel that they can ride (drive?) roughshod over the wishes of the local population that are moraly wrong here.[/quote]
    It's the commuters who need to use their cars who are simply trying to get to work who were driving perfectly safely anyway who have been made the victims of all this.
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    Besides Bonjy, if you're doing 20mph and there is a ped crossing the road in front of you, <i>you have to</i> stop.

    And you don't like that.

    Great, isn't it?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Yes, <i>legally</i> maybe. But what's he going to do if I give him a nice long beeping - stand in the middle of the road holding up the statute book pointing to the ancient 12th century law of pilgrim's rights of passage? Or just scurry along nicely to the other side like a good little ped?
    Yep. Methinks a good blast of the old horn's going to ensure the latter.

    edit: i think if he does the former, the most likely outcome is that he's going to get promptly sectioned. hee hee! [:D]
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Stakeholders - bollocks. It's the nanny state brigade that are to blame for this, the penpushers in council offices that like to think up ever more draconian methods of inflicting their meddling ways on the motorist.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    So you do believe that local people have no right whatsoever to have a stake in their locla environment>

    Your arrogance leave me speechless!

    Until the next statement:
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Yes, legally maybe. But what's he going to do if I give him a nice long beeping - stand in the middle of the road holding up the statute book pointing to the ancient 12th century law of pilgrim's rights of passage? Or just scurry along nicely to the other side like a good little ped?
    Yep. Methinks a good blast of the old horn's going to ensure the latter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Now that really says it all!

    Sod the law, get out of my way and you have no rights unless you are in a car!

    What a nice person you are.






    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
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  • BentMikeyBentMikey Posts: 4,895
    The Boss, that's terrible. Shame on you.

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  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Terrible, but says a lot about the mentality of some drivers.


    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    Besides Bonjy, if you're doing 20mph and there is a ped crossing the road in front of you, <i>you have to</i> stop.

    And you don't like that.

    Great, isn't it?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Yes, <i>legally</i> maybe. But what's he going to do if I give him a nice long beeping - stand in the middle of the road holding up the statute book pointing to the ancient 12th century law of pilgrim's rights of passage? Or just scurry along nicely to the other side like a good little ped?
    Yep. Methinks a good blast of the old horn's going to ensure the latter.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Ahhhh, we're back to the old petrol-head, huge-engined, MY ROAD!! Bonj. I knew he wasn't far away.

    The answer, dear, is that if he is crossing the road and your horn doesn't result in him getting out of the way, you knock him over. And you go to prison. Now that <i>is</i> tee hee.

    What bike do you ride again?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Having unnecessarily slow speed limits increases congestion, and that increases the time pedestrians are likely to have to wait to cross the road, which increases their likeliness to try to run across when it's not safe.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Rubbish on all counts. Please justify another ridiculous claim.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Purely the amount of scrabbling around for non-existent proof of the contrary and arm-flapping that's going on is sufficient proof that that's blatantly the case.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I'm not scrabbling around for anything. I'm asking you to justify your claims. It seems that you can't.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>



    There shouldn't be a need, but that doesn't stop them doing it when they are impatient and there is a lot of congested traffic.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Impatience. Remember that word. We'll get to it later.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    this is an unfounded contrived assumption. At 20 mph, there is actually a smaller gap needed to cross safely than at 30mph.This would make the hypothetical running safer at 20mph!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    But given the same volume of traffic, there are likely to be more gaps if they are going at 30mph because the bunched-up convoy that were released from one set of traffic lights are going to be getting out of the way quicker - at 20mph, they are more likely to be merged in with the convoy released from the following phase of the lights, thus eliminating the all-important safety gap.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    That's right. Well done. And this bunched-up group of poor-minded drivers will be driving faster. So when the same driver in the same circumstances hits a pedestrian, he will cause more injury. And we know that speed kills. Impatient drivers causing more injury Bonj. There's no need at all. Just get up 5 minutes earlier and you'll be much safer.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>



    Besides the argument itself is unfounded... To the locals who live in these roads the 20mph is not "unnecesarily slow" it is perfectly acceptable. They are the primary stakeholders here - it is their choice how their environment should be controlled, including speed limits. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Stakeholders - bol<i></i>locks. It's the nanny state brigade that are to blame for this, the penpushers in council offices that like to think up ever more draconian methods of inflicting their meddling ways on the motorist.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    And why would they do this? Just to wind you up?

    Bonj, go back to your knitting and Jeremy Kyle.



    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Stakeholders - bollocks. It's the nanny state brigade that are to blame for this, the penpushers in council offices that like to think up ever more draconian methods of inflicting their meddling ways on the motorist.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    So you do believe that local people have no right whatsoever to have a stake in their locla environment>
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Yes, but it's academic, because even though it's being made to look like they have been, I doubt they've been given it anyhow.
    Besides, people who already LIVE IN portsmouth aren't going to be as concerned about the driving conditions as people who don't live in portsmouth and commute there, as they aren't as likely to commute by car. They're going to be biased, the "WE want a 20mph limit in OUR town" frankly just stinks of nimbyism. It's not THEIR town, other people that work there contribute to its economy and use it on a daily basis despite not living there, but did they get a say in all this? Doubt it.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Yes, legally maybe. But what's he going to do if I give him a nice long beeping - stand in the middle of the road holding up the statute book pointing to the ancient 12th century law of pilgrim's rights of passage? Or just scurry along nicely to the other side like a good little ped?
    Yep. Methinks a good blast of the old horn's going to ensure the latter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Now that really says it all!

    Sod the law, get out of my way and you have no rights unless you are in a car!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Well, that's an extreme example - it's not actually intended to be an example of what I personally do.
    But, however, Mister Paul is known to be someone who <i>by his own previous admission</i> IS guilty of waiting by a zebra until a car approaches, just so he can then step out into the road and can make them stop. Purely to wield power over the innocent motorist. There might have been an ambulance stuck behind several cars back unable to make up the difference of the vital few seconds between someone's life and death. What a nice person he is.
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    The answer, dear, is that if he is crossing the road and your horn doesn't result in him getting out of the way, you knock him over. And you go to prison. Now that <i>is</i> tee hee.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    But that never happens. Despit your claims that that is the law, not many peds actually know that - and I never usually get the opportunity to beep them out of the way, and even if I did, then beeping the horn isn't <i>actually</i> what I'd do*, you tool! I was simply saying 'what if', using it as an illustrative example in retaliation to your wind up about a ped forcing a motorist to stop by virtue of already being on the road, but from your past admissions we know that that IS actually what you DO go and do!


    *<font size="1">unless it was you dancing around deliberately obstructively, that is, in which case I <i>would</i> beep the horn and if that failed I'd probably just end up ringing up nhs direct to enquire about the possibility of a sectioning.</font id="size1">
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    That's right. Well done. And this bunched-up group of poor-minded drivers will be driving faster. So when the same driver in the same circumstances hits a pedestrian, he will cause more injury. And we know that speed kills. Impatient drivers causing more injury Bonj. There's no need at all. Just get up 5 minutes earlier and you'll be much safer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If a silly ped gets himself run over because he can't be bothered to wait to cross the road then it's not going to be a pretty sight whether the car's doing 20mph or 30mph or even 15mph. Trying to pretend that everything's going to be ok even if there is an accident just because all the traffic's doing 20mph is just sweeping the road safety issue under the carpet in favour of the ability to produce statistics. Besides, a 6 ton bus going 20mph has got the same momentum as a 1.5 ton car going 80mph. So if your attitude is to assume that a ped IS going to be hit (which doesn't say much about confidence in the authorities' confidence in a ped's ability to cross the road, but still), then maybe to minimise damage we should introduce a momentum limit, rather than a speed limit? That would be great, everyone would be driving little lotus elises, and buses would be as good as banned.


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>


    Besides the argument itself is unfounded... To the locals who live in these roads the 20mph is not "unnecesarily slow" it is perfectly acceptable. They are the primary stakeholders here - it is their choice how their environment should be controlled, including speed limits. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">But they're the nimbies, they're not necessarily the ones that are contributing to portsmouth's economy. In what sense are they 'primary' just because they live there? They're not the only stakeholders, but it's academic as they probably won't have had a say in it anyway.


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>


    And why would they do this? Just to wind you up?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Because they love banning, regulating and legislating. They're addicted to it. We know this. Only in the paper this morning I was reading about Blair's government in its 10 years in power has made a new law on average once every 3 hours.
  • BentMikeyBentMikey Posts: 4,895
    Bonj, you've completely lost the debate because of your previous post where you want to intimidate the pedestrian out of the way. Selfish and ignorant, and yet the pedestrian has more right to be on the road than you do.

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  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BentMikey</i>

    Bonj, you've completely lost the debate because of your previous post where you want to intimidate the pedestrian out of the way.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    That's not what I do, I was just asserting the fact that 99.999% of times he <i>would</i> get out of the way if intimidated. Not that I am party to the intimidating.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BentMikey</i>


    the pedestrian has more right to be on the road than you do.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. We've had this out countless times and I can't be bothered to go into it again. And you're no one to talk, anyway - aren't you the guy who rides a home-made bike?
    We've had this argument many, many times, and every time I've won it - keep trying again won't make you any more likely to win. I'm bored of it, try a fresh one. Such as, maybe you could try to explain how will a 20mph speed limit actually HELP congestion rather than hinder it?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>
    Such as, maybe you could try to explain how will a 20mph speed limit actually HELP congestion rather than hinder it?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well, surely the fact that the braking distance is reduced means that they will be less of a gap between each vehicle therefore more vehicles can fit on any one stretch of road?

    PS - How about "the pedestrian has a greater claim to be on the road than a motorist"?
  • BentMikeyBentMikey Posts: 4,895
    OK, debate over when you start to lie.

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  • snorrisnorri Posts: 2,981
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Besides, people who already LIVE IN portsmouth aren't going to be as concerned about the driving conditions as people who don't live in portsmouth and commute there, as they aren't as likely to commute by car. They're going to be biased, the "WE want a 20mph limit in OUR town" frankly just stinks of nimbyism. It's not THEIR town, other people that work there contribute to its economy and use it on a daily basis despite not living there, <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You appear to have placed your accusations of nimbyism with the wrong group Boss. Surely it is the commuters with their desire to stay remote from employment services etc. who are the people with the nimby attitude. They do not care whose home life they disturb as they drive to work, but would not wish others to disturb their home lives.
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    Well, surely the fact that the braking distance is reduced means that they will be less of a gap between each vehicle therefore more vehicles can fit on any one stretch of road?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    if the pedestrian crosses when there is sufficient gap there shouldn't be a need for anyone to brake in the first place, let alone for the braking <i>distance</i> to matter.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>


    PS - How about "the pedestrian has a greater claim to be on the road than a motorist"?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Wrong. A "claim" to be on the road would be an assertion that he IS on the road, i.e. standing on the road at the time of making the claim. Which he either is or isn't.
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by snorri</i>


    You appear to have placed your accusations of nimbyism with the wrong group Boss. Surely it is the commuters with their desire to stay remote from employment services etc. who are the people with the nimby attitude. They do not care whose home life they disturb as they drive to work, but would not wish others to disturb their home lives.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    If they live in the suburbs, it's because they've upped and moved there, not because they've driven all the employment services out and banished them to the towns and cities. They've moved themselves away from what they don't like, rather than trying to move it away from them. If they buy a house in a village / town / suburb with infill, then they can fully expect something to be built there, be it supermarket, office or more houses, and they'll probably have researched this and taken into account (and probably benefitted from) the effect on house prices it will have had. If they buy a house surrounded by greenbelt, then they will reasonably safe in the knowledge that nothing's going to be built around there, but presumably they will have paid more for that location.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>
    if the pedestrian crosses when there is sufficient gap there shouldn't be a need for anyone to brake in the first place, let alone for the braking <i>distance</i> to matter.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You asked about congestion, what do pedestrians have to do with that?


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>
    Wrong. A "claim" to be on the road would be an assertion that he IS on the road, i.e. standing on the road at the time of making the claim. Which he either is or isn't.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I suggest you're interpreting my words deliberately to avoid accepting my point! Interesting discussion technique...
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    I suggest you're interpreting my words deliberately to avoid accepting my point! Interesting discussion technique...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Well, define more clearly what you DO mean by "claim" to be on the roads then.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    I suggest you're interpreting my words deliberately to avoid accepting my point! Interesting discussion technique...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Well, define more clearly what you DO mean by "claim" to be on the roads then.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    How about "an informal right to something".

    Notice the word informal, I'm not claiming (ha ha!) it is specifically written in legislation, case law etc. So please don't go off on one about demanding proof in Statutes and the ilk. But I suspect it is inferred in such texts/judgements.
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    They've moved themselves away from what they don't like, rather than trying to move it away from them.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    NIMBYism. Like snorri said.

    Are you really this obtuse, or do you have to work at it?

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Yes, but it's academic, because even though it's being made to look like they have been, I doubt they've been given it anyhow.
    Besides, people who already LIVE IN portsmouth aren't going to be as concerned about the driving conditions as people who don't live in portsmouth and commute there, as they aren't as likely to commute by car. They're going to be biased, the "WE want a 20mph limit in OUR town" frankly just stinks of nimbyism. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Having a say about what goes on in your area is great, and should be encouraged.
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>



    But, however, Mister Paul is known to be someone who <i>by his own previous admission</i> IS guilty of waiting by a zebra until a car approaches, just so he can then step out into the road and can make them stop. Purely to wield power over the innocent motorist. There might have been an ambulance stuck behind several cars back unable to make up the difference of the vital few seconds between someone's life and death. What a nice person he is.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Bonj, you're lying, and you know you are. Do you want me to remind everyone again about what was really said? It'll only make you look more foolish. If that is possible.[;)]

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    The answer, dear, is that if he is crossing the road and your horn doesn't result in him getting out of the way, you knock him over. And you go to prison. Now that <i>is</i> tee hee.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    But that never happens. Despit your claims that that is the law, not many peds actually know that - and I never usually get the opportunity to beep them out of the way, and even if I did, then beeping the horn isn't <i>actually</i> what I'd do*, you tool! I was simply saying 'what if', using it as an illustrative example in retaliation to your wind up about a ped forcing a motorist to stop by virtue of already being on the road, but from your past admissions we know that that IS actually what you DO go and do!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    What?? Not many pedestrians know that if a car can stop, but doesn't and deliberately runs you over then it's the driver's fault??

    It has nothing to do with pedestrians forcing cars to stop, but about drivers acting courteously and responsibly, and doing what they are supposed to to enable them to retain the license which enables them to drive on the road. It's not a right, remember?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    I suggest you're interpreting my words deliberately to avoid accepting my point! Interesting discussion technique...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Well, define more clearly what you DO mean by "claim" to be on the roads then.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    How about "an informal right to something".

    Notice the word informal, I'm not claiming (ha ha!) it is specifically written in legislation, case law etc. So please don't go off on one about demanding proof in Statutes and the ilk. But I suspect it is inferred in such texts/judgements.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    But I don't see how this can be backed up, and to be quite honest I find it quite bizarre, because I don't really know anyone that thinks this apart from the deluded people on this forum.
  • We've had 20 mph limits around here for years . Nobody actually enforces the limit though . My street has a 20 mph limit and I regularly see people drive at what I would estimate to be 40-50 mph .

    http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/n ... index.aspx
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    But I don't see how this can be backed up, and to be quite honest I find it quite bizarre, because I don't really know anyone that thinks this apart from the deluded people on this forum.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Bonj, you've fallen into the SS trap of self-referral.

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    Just for fun Bonj, let's just remember what you and I actually said about zebra crossings-

    Me
    I was walking home from work last night and got to a zebra crossing. The road was clear, apart from a car that was some distance away. As I stepped out he accelerated towards the crossing. I was some way across when he got there and I had to step back quickly when I realised he had no intention of stopping.

    <i>Bonj
    You fool! You should never step out until all the cars have stopped!</i>

    ...and the next day.....

    Me
    I was walking home from work last night and got to a zebra crossing. I stood patiently at the crossing for quite a while, waiting for the cars to stop. Several cars passed before one did.

    <i>Bonj
    You fool! How dare you make cars stop just for the power trip when you had no intention of crossing the road!</i>

    ...or words to that effect.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    The answer, dear, is that if he is crossing the road and your horn doesn't result in him getting out of the way, you knock him over. And you go to prison. Now that <i>is</i> tee hee.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    But that never happens. Despit your claims that that is the law, not many peds actually know that - and I never usually get the opportunity to beep them out of the way, and even if I did, then beeping the horn isn't <i>actually</i> what I'd do*, you tool! I was simply saying 'what if', using it as an illustrative example in retaliation to your wind up about a ped forcing a motorist to stop by virtue of already being on the road, but from your past admissions we know that that IS actually what you DO go and do!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    What?? Not many pedestrians know that if a car can stop, but doesn't and deliberately runs you over then it's the driver's fault??<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    No, when I say 'not many know that' I mean not many know that they don't actually have to hurry across in order to prevent a car having to slow down.
    Most probably know that if a driver could stop but didn't then he'd be for the high jump. But most pedestrians, unlike you, are concerned more with the safety aspect than the legal aspect - consequently they are of the belief that if you are on the road and a car is coming then they should get out of its way. They don't usually obsess themselves with that would happen and who would be to blame if an accident did happen, they just try to make sure it doesn't and if that necessitates scurrying across to get to the other side quicker, then what's the problem in it?

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>


    It has nothing to do with pedestrians forcing cars to stop<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Well it is with you.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>


    but about drivers acting courteously and responsibly, and doing what they are supposed to to enable them to retain the license which enables them to drive on the road. It's not a right, remember?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    It is a right, just one which is earned. I have the right to drive on the road because I have earned the license to do so and satisfied all other conditions of that right.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    But I don't see how this can be backed up, and to be quite honest I find it quite bizarre, because I don't really know anyone that thinks this apart from the deluded people on this forum.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well, to be honest, I don't know how it can be backed up either. But it does seem to be accepted as a theory that transport policy should be based on the premise that pedestrians have priority over other forms of transport (cycles, horses, motor vehicles).

    I guess if you don't know anyone who thinks like that then you don't socialise with many progressive thinking people!

    Welcome to the future Bonj, sorry it isn't car-shaped!
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    Just for fun Bonj, let's just remember what you and I actually said about zebra crossings-

    Me
    I was walking home from work last night and got to a zebra crossing. The road was clear, apart from a car that was some distance away. As I stepped out he accelerated towards the crossing. I was some way across when he got there and I had to step back quickly when I realised he had no intention of stopping.

    <i>Bonj
    You fool! You should never step out until all the cars have stopped!</i>

    ...and the next day.....

    Me
    I was walking home from work last night and got to a zebra crossing. I stood patiently at the crossing for quite a while, waiting for the cars to stop. Several cars passed before one did.

    <i>Bonj
    You fool! How dare you make cars stop just for the power trip when you had no intention of crossing the road!</i>

    ...or words to that effect.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Hmmmm... I think we both know that really it was more along the lines of
    "I was coming home from work yesterday when I got to a zebra crossing and waited for a while. Eventually some cars were approaching so I stepped out, to my horror they didn't stop!"
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