2024 UK politics - now with Labour in charge

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  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,764

    In any event it will take a bit more time for enough of the general public to realise what is already well established I.e. that you can't tax the country into prosperity.

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,651

    Here's an example of a subsidy which ultimately doesn't benefit the consumer... just goes in one end and out the other.


  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,355
    edited November 26

    Yup, SWW are shocking. Near here, there is a sewage treatment plant that even in the normal course if events has insufficient capacity for the villages it serves. Rather than build another or upgrade, SWW send a tanker down each day to pump it out. In wet weather it just discharges next to a nature reserve. Last year, that was not far short of 1 day in every 2 (167 discharges).

  • Maybe not, but you can tax a country into happiness it seems. https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/04/07/tax-more-happiness-alan-kohler

    Given a choice between prosperity and happiness I know which I would choose.

    And the link between low tax and prosperity isn't particularly well established either, it very much depends upon how you measure prosperity.

  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,764

    I think the writer of they article is confusing correlation and causation.

    If it were true we should all be ecstatic, but we're not, strangely. But it could be a good idea to get loads of gullible lefties to pay more tax by telling them that they will be happier for it.

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Even by the standards of history's second craziest Pol (Toynbee; Pot just edges her on balance) this is a weird article.

    George Osborne is a walking ad for a wealth tax. Labour should target the inheritocracy | Polly Toynbee | The Guardian

    The first two paragraphs are blatant Osborne-bashing. Obviously as an ex-politician, he deserves bashing every day, and in his case, I would make occasional exceptions to my rule against physical violence. However, even Osborne-bashing has to be grounded in logic.

    Paragraph 1 has a general rant about how people born into wealth tend to accumulate more wealth, quoting Osborne as a flamboyant, flaunting example of this, with no justification bar perhaps a photo of him with his glamorous new partner from 2022. (Definitely punching above his weight there, but that's another story.)

    Paragraph 2 then references Osborne benefitting from being a partner at a highly profitable financial advisory firm, even going as far as to describe this benefit as being like a salary, as though being paid a salary is a bad thing. Mad Pol may write her nonsense for free, but most sane people understand the concept of being paid for your work. But putting this logic fail to one side, the bigger logic fail is that Osborne's "salary" is very little to do with being born into wealth and mainly to do with his "address book" from his days at Number 11.

    There's probably a decent article to be written about potential issues arising from some ex-politicians being able to command high paying jobs based solely on their contacts built up from their days of "public service". The most obvious such issue being whether the potential for post-politics earnings is the draw into politics rather than the motivation to serve the public. But anyway, that article wasn't written.

    Paragraphs 3-7 are then a broadly sensible discussion of the issues associated with wealth inequality and the difficulties associated with taxing wealth. Despite the initial Osborne-bashing, Pol's "hero" does not feature in this discussion, from which we can maybe deduce that he hasn't indulged in any egregious tax avoidance. Or maybe Pol has done no more homework than reading a couple of other Guardian articles.

    Paragraphs 8 and 9 then discus changing Council Tax to be a general national-level tax based on ability to pay (as measured by current value of house) rather than it being a tax to contribute to the local services that the household might consume. Definitely worth a discussion, despite no reference here to Osborne's role in the failings of the Council Tax system due to being paid by Robey Warshaw LLP.

    The final paragraph then completely loses the plot by proposing that CGT should be levied on primary residences.

    Osborne gets a final kicking in the last sentence, with Pol describing him as the Poster Boy (she uses the word "exemplar" which I think is progressive-speak for "Poster Boy") for the societal damage caused by wealth and inheritance, which at the risk of sounding like a broken record are nothing to do with Osborne's "crime" referenced early in the article, namely being highly paid. He gets another shoeing for greed, which sounds all virtuous, but who would turn down a multi-million £ payday? (Honest answers only!)

  • The likely mechanism is that people are happy when the economy is strong, as they get good pay rises, and also have the ability to pay relatively more tax in such circumstances. The last couple of years in the UK demonstrate that people are very unhappy when being taxed more during a "cost of living crisis" or similar.

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,651

    But that's aligned with pretty much all public services being up shit creek too. Being worse off and everything being broken is why Labour got in.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,793

    What exactly did you expect from a comment piece in the Guardian? Man is shocked to discover well known home of vaguely lefty incoherence contains vaguely lefty incoherence.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Agree that a "strong economy" (as perceived by the public in the UK) generally requires good pay packets and good public services.

    Apparently though the two biggest reasons for people voting "Not Tory" were Partygate and not wanting to be associated with a party that chose Liz Truss as PM rather than the economy per se. Though maybe the state of the economy put people in a position where these two events were the straw that broke the camel's back.

  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,682
    edited December 4

    I wasn't shocked at the existence of Leftieboll*x in a Toynbee article. But the issue of how to raise enough tax to pay for public services is sufficiently weighty that a good article could be written covering all the issues about inequality, privilege etc. without needing to sacrifice intellectual credibility by dissing Osborne for earning his inherited wealth as income. But I guess the loyal G readers aren't interested in intellectual arguments; they just want to read what they want to read, and "Osborne Bad" ticks their boxes.

    And in the interest of balance, I'll add that many Torygraph articles are similarly devoid of logic. But they are written more cunningly in that they focus on imaginary enemies, so it's hard to comment objectively how e.g. the claimed failings of "the establishment blob" are wrong, beyond pointing out that the entire article is simply nonsense.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,441
    edited December 4

    The important part in my case was "and everything being broken."

    12 years of austerity and "efficiency" as in cutbacks, has just lead to most feeling worse off and everything being broken.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • I'm agreeing with you. In the UK, you can't claim to have a strong economy unless you have both decent pay and good public service. Don't want to get sidetracked in a discussion about AND, OR and NOT etc. in logic terms!

  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,604

    Blair literally made millions on the back of being PM. He also went to probably the poshest school in Scotland.

    Brown has done pretty well from it too.

    Toynbee regularly proves to be an utter idiot.

  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,996

    Pretty sure that the only reason that Owen Jones gets to write anything is to make Polly T look good.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,793

    I mean, they let Simon Jenkins write about housing and planning.

    It's all just satiation. Pick your flavour

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Indeed. Meanwhile, back at the Torygraph, Allison Pearson, flying high after her run-in with the Essex "thought police" was having a rant about immigration yesterday, focusing on how many recent immigrants are not economically beneficial in their own right. She's likely got a point here, but she included overseas students in list of such types, clearly (intentionally, perhaps) forgetting that overseas students pay eyewatering fees for their courses from their own pockets and fund their own living expenses whilst consuming very few state services, as they're generally young and healthy. (One of daughter's friends at Uni was paying north of £20k a year for undergrad fees vs £9,250 for UK students.)

  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,651

    I guess opinion columns are much cheaper than actual journalism.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,441

    Certainly better clickbait than simple factual reporting. Either confirmation bias or triggering. Speaking of which, I look for ward to the Express finding out that Muhammad is currently the top pick for boys name. My Dad will be so triggered.


    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,651

    I feel like that's the same story every year...although clearly I'm misremembering as Muhammad wasn't the most popular name last year.

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,355

    Is Chlamydia still popular for girls?

  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,996
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,764

    😊

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,651

    I suspect my good friend who's a director of a housing company and has to deal with these sorts of things will be happy at these sorts of noises. I remember one large development he was working on needed lots of work doing because of dormice habitat (I think), but he reflected that new residents' cats would appreciate the remaining dormouse population for a few meals thus making the mitigations quickly pointless.


  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,561

    I think I’m very pro housing development, it pays a chunk of my bills after all, but I’m not convinced that is great at face value. The ecology stuff can get ridiculous at times but that is just down to over-zealous interpretation of regulations most of the time. We need to protect our endangered wildlife (and plants). We need to build but not at any costs.

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,651

    I suspect what happens is that Nimby's sometimes abuse the wildlife regs to inordinately delay developments that are going to happen anyway, but @rjsterry will have a more informed opinion than my "my mate says that..." one.

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,651

    Just in case you thought PE wouldn't go for miscreant Labour MPs...


  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,793

    Part of the problem is that with the previous deregulation of Building Control , Planning is the only opportunity to enforce some condition on a development. Not entirely unreasonably, local authorities think they should be addressing various environmental and social concerns for their constituents, but have insufficient funds and the planning system is their best, possibly only, opportunity to get someone else to contribute to these goals. So these worthy causes get bolted on to planning consents.

    The thing is planning officers only know about planning so they consult other specialists on the additional areas that have been bolted on to the planning system: heritage, waterways, highways, schools, ecology, trees, etc. Each consultee looks at the problem purely from their point of view without any consideration of the wider goals of the planning policies, and sends back to the planning officer a list of conditions that they would like appended to a consent. In theory the planning officer is able to take a view on the relative merits of each set of conditions and edit these into a balanced set of requirements, but the reality is more a case of aggregation resulting in unweildy lists of sometimes inappropriate conditions attached to even quite modest applications. These then need to be discharged via further applications and submissions.

    For a recent application to change the roof covering on a house in a conservation area we were required to prepare a statement detailing how the change from artificial slate to natural slate reduced CO2 emissions from the property. The same local authority forbids the replacement of single glazed sash windows with double glazed versions for heritage conservation reasons.

    At the other end of the scale: bat tunnels.

    A lot of this boils down to local authorities adding requirements to their planning policies that their planning departments then don't have the expertise or resources to assess or administer.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,001

    It all sounds fine to me other than the opposition to double glazing. It's not easy to build loads of stuff.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,793
    edited December 9

    This is the thing: each thing sounds fine in isolation but it's become a collection of competing and contradictory requirements that cannot be simultaneously satisfied. All administered by an underfunded, chronically understaffed and demoralised workforce.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition