World Championships 2024 Zürich ***SPOILERS***

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Comments

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592

    The strange bit is letting Pog ride away and open that sort of gap to start with. Unfortunately I only saw the early stages and then had to visit my father in hospital so still not quite sure how it happened. We've seen enough times that once you let Pog (or Remco or MVDP) get a gap they are incredibly difficult to catch no matter how far they have to go solo.

  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,497

    But you either work together to give yourself a chance or you throw in the towel. It is also a scenario oft seen where in the final of a race, tired legs can throw predictions out of the window.

    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • You think O'Connor would have had a chance if he'd worked?

    It's not throwing in the towel, his chance was maximised by not contributing. But the chance of the catch was reduced.

    I love bike racing.

  • This is my sentiment too. I get exactly what KG is saying, but if you're not there at the end then it is all immaterial. May as well take a risk and have a 5% chance of winning than not work and have zero chance.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,485
    edited September 30

    I suppose it depends entirely on how you view a podium spot. I don't care so would have to gamble everything on the win but others will have a different view where 2nd & 3rd are worth something. Possibly even lower placings.

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    I am not sure. You have no chance.
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  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,497

    He could have had a chance if they had all contributed. O'Connor got away. He was the best of the rest. He must have been well chuffed. If he had the legs to leave that highly rated group of chasers, then who knows?

    Surely in the minds of the chasing group, Pog was worth catching as he would not have been favourite in that particular small bunch sprint?

    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • The other thing to consider is that when someone is exhausted etc. near the end of a race, decision-making may well not be as easy as we make it sound sometimes!

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592

    The cliche is cycling is chess on wheels. It’s more like poker on wheels, lots of gambling and bluffing. As they said in the women’s race you have to be prepared to lose whether that’s a Pog style gamble on going long and that the others won’t work or being in the chasers and gambling that someone else will crack and do the chasing while you save energy again.

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,025

    I'm talking about the year Gilbert won. Team GB/Sky rode on the front for a long time despite not having a realistic chance of winning. Gilbert accepted the gift.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,485

    I couldn't be bothered looking it up. GB/Sky failed a few times but won in 2011 with Cav just so he could wear their jersey the following year.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108

    But if you just don't have the legs to work? Bardet for one sat in and still didn't finish in the group.

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  • carbonclem
    carbonclem Posts: 1,798
    2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108

    Basically Tratnik (sp?) dropped back from the break and helped tow him across the last 30-40 seconds.

    From memory -someone help me out if this is wrong - I don't think there was a huge reaction initially. He got across and then a chasing group did start bringing that lead group back and it started to look like it might have been a wasted effort by Pog. Pog then attacked on the climb before the favourites caught them and took Sivakov with him - he actually had to slow down quite a bit to let Sivakov catch him at one point. Then we ended up with Pog and Sivakov (who lasted about a lap?) and a chasing group. I don't remember teammates of the other favourites doing a great deal to help

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  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,486

    There is no way to escape group 2 dynamics in cycling. The only time the chase group really made up time on Pogacar was when 1-2 riders (Healy/Skujins perhaps - I don't remember who it was) had attacked and the chase group invested to bring them/him back. that dropped the gap to Pog from 51 seconds to around 30 seconds.

    The moment they caught the escapees, everyone remembered that MvdP is in the group and you can't ride all out to catch Pog only to have MvdP outsprint you. So everyone sits up. Pog wins.

    I think Pog was blowing up for about half a lap. He caught himself, recovered a little bit (maybe a gel hit the spot) and managed it to the end. There were moments where he was visibly suffering. The group could have caught him when they had him at 30 seconds, but I'm not sure they knew it was down to 30 seconds and the group 2 dynamics are still applicable as described above.

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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912

    He only just pulled that off .,. A bit more cooperation behind and he could have been caught

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,497

    Finally got around to watching the women's RR and it was indeed a far more exciting race.

    Despite slipping off the back and not being able to respond to some of the attacks when ascending. Kopecky showed class and tactical astuteness. I felt for Vollering but I kind of wish she had saved some emotional energy on concentrating on the win and what she was going to do than getting animated about the Klingons not pulling as hard (and it was evident she was stronger and they were hurting).

    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592

    I think the women's race demonstrated the case for not chasing the leaders. Kopecky couldn't / wouldn't and made great use of Dygert's strength (I think Vos also dragged her back once). She then left Vollering to chase Longo Borghini's late attack. Vollering was desperate to win and ended up doing far too much.

  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,154

    Blimey, I'm giving that a like straight away for the effort. Now I'm going to grab a coffee and read it.

  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,497

    Vollering I think, was so desperate to not let Kopecky back in.

    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    edited October 1

    This is a reminder of exactly what was up the road shortly before Pog jumped. By this point I thought it was too late for MvdP to get his team to chase and should just wait until Pog jumped. Obviously no race radio's, so no DS read the post and told him to watch Pog's back wheel.



    When Pog jumped:

    Tratnik was sitting and waiting anyway, so doubt he had any strange facial expressions when the jump came.

    But later, when he was pulling the front group and Pog rode up to give him instructions he looked like he might cry. Certainly a lot of grimacing then the last couple of minutes of his work before Pog went completely solo. Tratnik will be wearing a very expensive watch next season I think, absolutely immense for Pog.

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Fair enough if you literally have nothing left, but I am thinking more of those who do and are too risk averse to go for it. Specifically in relation to Sunday, there must have been a number of riders who had the legs and could have worked together to bring Pog back.

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592

    So was Pog in the peloton and 3 minutes behind the Tratnik group at the time he jumped and he closed that gap solo (other than a bit of help from Sivakov)?

  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692

    Pog was 3 minutes behind when he jumped (well, a bit less probably, they'd strung out the peloton and brought some time back, can' remember the actual gap). Sivakov was already up the road. Tratnik dropped back shortly after the feed zone (got instructions from the side of the road I think) and helped Pog up to the break. Then Tratnik pulled the break with Campenaerts/Belgium pulling the peloton behind him. Sivakov tried to hold Pog's wheel when he went off the front of the break and sort of managed with a bit of Pog waiting for him.

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 12,035

    Steve Williams was up in the break and riding strongly, but ended up dnf - anyone know why?

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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227

    What should Sivakov have done?

    For his France team, he definitely shouldn't have worked with Pog, unless he insanely thought he could work and stay away with him until the end. Probably shouldn't even have tried to get on his wheel up that hill. Obviously he definitely should have for the team who pays his wages.

  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,575

    The gap was about 2:15 to the front group when Pogacar attacked as Damon Novak did a lot of work into the climb out of Zurich city centre and then up and over it. Then a few riders jumped - Simmons and a Dutch rider who I couldn't make out - before they were pulled back by Roglic.

  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912

    Alaphalippe crashed out . Might as well go for the podium and ride with pog

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 12,035
    edited October 1

    I was under the impression Pog was trying to tow him along to see if they could finish 1st and 2nd, but also for some mutual benefit - could be wrong of course, has either mentioned it at all in interviews?

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