World Championships 2024 Zürich ***SPOILERS***
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The strange bit is letting Pog ride away and open that sort of gap to start with. Unfortunately I only saw the early stages and then had to visit my father in hospital so still not quite sure how it happened. We've seen enough times that once you let Pog (or Remco or MVDP) get a gap they are incredibly difficult to catch no matter how far they have to go solo.
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But you either work together to give yourself a chance or you throw in the towel. It is also a scenario oft seen where in the final of a race, tired legs can throw predictions out of the window.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!1 -
You think O'Connor would have had a chance if he'd worked?
It's not throwing in the towel, his chance was maximised by not contributing. But the chance of the catch was reduced.
I love bike racing.
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This is my sentiment too. I get exactly what KG is saying, but if you're not there at the end then it is all immaterial. May as well take a risk and have a 5% chance of winning than not work and have zero chance.
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I suppose it depends entirely on how you view a podium spot. I don't care so would have to gamble everything on the win but others will have a different view where 2nd & 3rd are worth something. Possibly even lower placings.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
He could have had a chance if they had all contributed. O'Connor got away. He was the best of the rest. He must have been well chuffed. If he had the legs to leave that highly rated group of chasers, then who knows?
Surely in the minds of the chasing group, Pog was worth catching as he would not have been favourite in that particular small bunch sprint?
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
The other thing to consider is that when someone is exhausted etc. near the end of a race, decision-making may well not be as easy as we make it sound sometimes!
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The cliche is cycling is chess on wheels. It’s more like poker on wheels, lots of gambling and bluffing. As they said in the women’s race you have to be prepared to lose whether that’s a Pog style gamble on going long and that the others won’t work or being in the chasers and gambling that someone else will crack and do the chasing while you save energy again.
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I'm talking about the year Gilbert won. Team GB/Sky rode on the front for a long time despite not having a realistic chance of winning. Gilbert accepted the gift.
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I couldn't be bothered looking it up. GB/Sky failed a few times but won in 2011 with Cav just so he could wear their jersey the following year.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
But if you just don't have the legs to work? Bardet for one sat in and still didn't finish in the group.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
JTL got a top ten despite being very drunk? :D
2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
Basically Tratnik (sp?) dropped back from the break and helped tow him across the last 30-40 seconds.
From memory -someone help me out if this is wrong - I don't think there was a huge reaction initially. He got across and then a chasing group did start bringing that lead group back and it started to look like it might have been a wasted effort by Pog. Pog then attacked on the climb before the favourites caught them and took Sivakov with him - he actually had to slow down quite a bit to let Sivakov catch him at one point. Then we ended up with Pog and Sivakov (who lasted about a lap?) and a chasing group. I don't remember teammates of the other favourites doing a great deal to help
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
There is no way to escape group 2 dynamics in cycling. The only time the chase group really made up time on Pogacar was when 1-2 riders (Healy/Skujins perhaps - I don't remember who it was) had attacked and the chase group invested to bring them/him back. that dropped the gap to Pog from 51 seconds to around 30 seconds.
The moment they caught the escapees, everyone remembered that MvdP is in the group and you can't ride all out to catch Pog only to have MvdP outsprint you. So everyone sits up. Pog wins.
I think Pog was blowing up for about half a lap. He caught himself, recovered a little bit (maybe a gel hit the spot) and managed it to the end. There were moments where he was visibly suffering. The group could have caught him when they had him at 30 seconds, but I'm not sure they knew it was down to 30 seconds and the group 2 dynamics are still applicable as described above.
PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20232 -
He only just pulled that off .,. A bit more cooperation behind and he could have been caught
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Finally got around to watching the women's RR and it was indeed a far more exciting race.
Despite slipping off the back and not being able to respond to some of the attacks when ascending. Kopecky showed class and tactical astuteness. I felt for Vollering but I kind of wish she had saved some emotional energy on concentrating on the win and what she was going to do than getting animated about the Klingons not pulling as hard (and it was evident she was stronger and they were hurting).
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I think the women's race demonstrated the case for not chasing the leaders. Kopecky couldn't / wouldn't and made great use of Dygert's strength (I think Vos also dragged her back once). She then left Vollering to chase Longo Borghini's late attack. Vollering was desperate to win and ended up doing far too much.
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Yep, that's a good summary. It was Tratnik V Belgium (mainly/only Campenaerts) for a while, they had three or four riders at the front. The front group was pegged there at 35-45 seconds I think (chapeau Tratnik) and it looked like it had been a daft move. Nobody else would work with Pog until he jumped and a couple tried to follow (Simmons? and Sivakov). Sivakov couldn't hold his wheel and Pog waited, though he was as much use as a chocolate teapot for about twenty minutes after that, then did a few small turns, then popped.
Worth noting again that the front group was the early break plus the new break that had originally had a lieutenant from each of the big teams except Netherlands and Spain - they were quality names, just not the team captains. MvdP was disastrously slow to react to that, they did little to no work to pull it back and it became clear that both Pog and Remco would eventually try and jump over to a helper up the road, while MvdP would have nobody. May also be worth wondering how much the lack of race radios affected this - did the Netherlands piss about so long because they didn't know who'd gone? Did they not know they were the big losers? That group worked OK, though both Tratnik and whoever Belgium had (can't remember offhand) sat in. Perhaps if Netherlands had chased they'd have gone to the front and burnt out a few of MvdP's helpers.
Slovenia then set about shrinking the gap and setting up the jump and both Remco and MvdP thought it was too early for Pog to go so didn't bother marking him. Utter foolishness not to be on his wheel at all times and have your team about you really, should learn from Vingegaard's Tour victories. You might not be able to stay on his wheel, but you can either try or start the chase with your team immediately. I suspect that the point Pog gets marked from will have moved from 30 to 50 to 80 to 100km out now - does he have to go earlier every time to catch them sleeping?
Pog definitely looked human at points there. On about the third lap from the finish he missed a feed and was pretty pissed off, eventually they let his car come up and give him some gels. The fact that he didn't have his car with him for most of the race tells you his gap was never all that much - I don't think he would have been able to pull off an MvdP in Glasgow style corner slide out and still won, let alone a puncture.
Lack of radios really emphasise this I think, Pog was often looking behind him on the last lap, even once relatively safe, but how often was he getting time checks from the moto? And if they say "45 seconds" but are maybe a couple of minutes old and 10"-15" out? Same for the chase group - do they know how close he really is?
Anyway, I watched from over 200km out, and only thought it was definitely Pog's for about 30km of it where he had almost a minute for a while, then thought he was going to get caught for a while and didn't relax again until he was about 3-4km out. It didn't feel nailed on, it wasn't like Strade Bianche where it was all over from 80km to go and within two minutes of his original attack. There were still possibilities, Pog was tiring and the gap was small enough that a rider with diamonds in his legs might have bridged solo, or G2 might have collaborated even at 90% to bring him back. The fact the gap didn't grow shows they at least did some work together. There was also the possibility a couple of attacks and counters from the group in quick succession would have brought the time back really quickly, but there weren't really any solid counters. The terrain didn't favour the group - or teams earlier in the race though, difficult to get organised and ride a consistent pace when it's that up and down.
Warning No formatter is installed for the format8 -
Blimey, I'm giving that a like straight away for the effort. Now I'm going to grab a coffee and read it.
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Vollering I think, was so desperate to not let Kopecky back in.
seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
This is a reminder of exactly what was up the road shortly before Pog jumped. By this point I thought it was too late for MvdP to get his team to chase and should just wait until Pog jumped. Obviously no race radio's, so no DS read the post and told him to watch Pog's back wheel.
When Pog jumped:
Tratnik was sitting and waiting anyway, so doubt he had any strange facial expressions when the jump came.
But later, when he was pulling the front group and Pog rode up to give him instructions he looked like he might cry. Certainly a lot of grimacing then the last couple of minutes of his work before Pog went completely solo. Tratnik will be wearing a very expensive watch next season I think, absolutely immense for Pog.
Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Fair enough if you literally have nothing left, but I am thinking more of those who do and are too risk averse to go for it. Specifically in relation to Sunday, there must have been a number of riders who had the legs and could have worked together to bring Pog back.
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So was Pog in the peloton and 3 minutes behind the Tratnik group at the time he jumped and he closed that gap solo (other than a bit of help from Sivakov)?
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This is a nicely written piece.
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Pog was 3 minutes behind when he jumped (well, a bit less probably, they'd strung out the peloton and brought some time back, can' remember the actual gap). Sivakov was already up the road. Tratnik dropped back shortly after the feed zone (got instructions from the side of the road I think) and helped Pog up to the break. Then Tratnik pulled the break with Campenaerts/Belgium pulling the peloton behind him. Sivakov tried to hold Pog's wheel when he went off the front of the break and sort of managed with a bit of Pog waiting for him.
Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Steve Williams was up in the break and riding strongly, but ended up dnf - anyone know why?
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What should Sivakov have done?
For his France team, he definitely shouldn't have worked with Pog, unless he insanely thought he could work and stay away with him until the end. Probably shouldn't even have tried to get on his wheel up that hill. Obviously he definitely should have for the team who pays his wages.
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The gap was about 2:15 to the front group when Pogacar attacked as Damon Novak did a lot of work into the climb out of Zurich city centre and then up and over it. Then a few riders jumped - Simmons and a Dutch rider who I couldn't make out - before they were pulled back by Roglic.
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Alaphalippe crashed out . Might as well go for the podium and ride with pog
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm2 -
I was under the impression Pog was trying to tow him along to see if they could finish 1st and 2nd, but also for some mutual benefit - could be wrong of course, has either mentioned it at all in interviews?
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