'Ouses, Greenbelt and stuff

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  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,766
    edited July 14

    They did a fab job of the old mental hospitals (aka 'lunatic asylums' when they were built) at Digby and Exminster. Both listed, the latter GII*


  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,599

    It’s a big site for £500k. It reminds me a bit of the former psychiatric hospital in my home town that was redeveloped.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817
    edited July 14

    It is, but the price reflects the challenges of redeveloping a big listed building. There's little value in a site like that that can't be redeveloped and it would be a pretty massive undertaking. We have a couple of former institutions nearby that have been redeveloped - Netherne on the Hill and Csne Hill. Much easier than a fortified barracks but not without their challenges.


    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,029

    What's the YIMBY position on listed buildings?

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    Essentially a good idea, but has morphed into yet another reason to do nothing and a mindset that everything old is de facto by virtue of its age, and everything new is therefore bad (harmful to the significance of the heritage asset). It largely suffers from being policed by too few under-skilled conservation officers who default to treating buildings like museum artefacts. Buildings that can't be made to fit people's needs are abandoned, and nobody looks after abandoned buildings apart from a few overstretched charities. A bit of flexibility in allowing adaptation will increase the chances of long term survival for the assets they seek to protect.

    For the less common Grade II* and I, English Heritage gets involved and they seem to have a much more balanced view on the benefit of keeping buildings usable by allowing some sensible alterations.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,952

    My brother in law has a grade 2 listed house and has a pretty good relationship with the conservation officer (who sounds pretty sensible). A lot of the work he has been doing to the house is ripping out 80's & 90's bodge jobs and restoring to something like the original but apparently any change from the point it was listed (quite recently i believe) needs to be approved.

    The conservation officer suggested applying to get it delisted, presumably so he doesn't keep having to come out and approve removal of hideous modern stuff.

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,397

    So glad we didn't buy the lovely listed farmhouse we were tempted by. Or the one in the national park. You can't fart and open a window without getting permission in either case.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    Like most of the planning system it's an (over) reaction to some of the problems of the very lax regulation of the early 20th century.

    Now local authorities feel like they should be doing their bit for net zero, etc, and so there are a raft of additional documents that need to be supplied for even modest domestic applications. A lot of the information required is a duplicate of information that would be developed later in the process to show Building Regs compliance so the result is that applicants just put something together to get the box ticked for their planning application. Planning officers don't have the expertise to review detailed construction information because they are trained as town planners. More server space is used to store it all and a few local councillors feel like they are doing something useful.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,599

    Just read a LinkedIn article by a Planning Consultant I've worked with over many years and he was saying the new positivity towards development is already filtering down to Local Plnning Authorities:

    "The conversations with the LPA have been positive and it is now clear that the planners feel less shackled and more willing to take a chance on innovation, to support sustainable growth."

    He said he was surprised how quickly the air of optimism has spread without the NPPF having even been changed yet.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    For those that are interested, some detailed analysis of the new NPPF and housing targets by Lichfields.


    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833

    A number of interesting points and questions arise out of this article (if you can look past the slightly provocative headline):

    1. Why are house building targets in London being reduced when pressure on housing is generally seen to be high there; while areas such as the North East are having significant increases in their targets?
    2. How are Labour expecting all the necessary infrastructure and support services for new housing to be provided on a timely basis, especially when they are starting to reduce infrastructure spending?
    3. Quote from the article: “There are around 1.4m unbuilt homes with planning permission already, so it’s odd that Labour is prioritising removing greenbelt protections rather than getting homes that are shovel-ready built first.” I was not previously aware of this. Any ideas?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    On the London target, this was my initial reaction, but reading into it further, the current target is so far away from what is actually being built that the reduction just makes it slightly more plausible that one day someone might meet it. The target is still more than double actual current completions.


    Agree cutting capital spending on infrastructure is nuts and just leads to bigger costs down the line (see HS2). This needs a rethink.

    The Green Belt fretting is a fuss over nothing. The areas involved are tiny, in most cases already semi-developed and not the unspoilt rural idyll that some would have you believe.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833

    The absolute numbers are useful to put it into context.

    On the last point, whether the proposed development on the green belt is tin or not, that is subjective and many would disagree with you if it impacts them. However the point remains that there appear to be 1.4m homes which have planning permission now but are unbuilt. Why not build them first? Quicker and easier, surely? That is very close to the 5 year target that Labour have set themselves.

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,397

    1. Steal underpants

    3. Profit

    Suspect that 3 is the underlying reason 1.4M houses and 2M new Tesco locals haven't been built yet Stevo

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    It's not subjective that the areas under discussion are a tiny proportion of the vast areas of Green Belt. It's also not subjective that there's already plenty of development that has found itself inside the Green Belt. It's a zoning designation marked onto a map, not a qualitative assessment of how lovely and green a bit of land is. As for why developers haven't built out every consent I doubt there's one single answer, but you'd have to survey individual developers to find the common factors. Profit is likely to feature - it's remarkably easy to lose your shirt developing and construction inflation and interest rates have wiped out the profitability of a lot of projects.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833

    It's a good point, because what is going to make them get up and build loads more if there's not enough profit, just because Raymer says so?

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    A big part of the risk for developers is the unknown timescale - will you get consent in 6 months? A year? 2 years? 3 years? That leads to the larger developers stockpiling so that they can manage the supply of land for their building side. It also makes it really hard for smaller developers as that kind of delay is the difference between making a profit to roll into the next project and going bust.

    Reinstating targets helps because it forces authorities to allocate sufficient sites, but it's only a small part of the solution. The idea that 350 more planning officers - barely one per council - is going to make a measurable difference to decision times seems fanciful.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833

    True, there a number of challenges.

    But going back to your point above about how much green belt is affected, you may be able to argue that the area in scope is small, but if there is already pressure on existing facilities and infrastructure then this could still cause issues. Secondly, if this continues over a long period then the inevitable scope creep will set in and in the longer term we could easily see some significant additional urban/suburban sprawl.

    Also, I've mentioned above the impact of immigration on the population and the current Labour target of 1.5m houses over 5 years doesn't even cover the likely increase in population if net immigration carries on at anywhere near the current level.

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817
    edited August 12

    Building homes puts pressure on existing infrastructure wherever it is built. All development has an impact on its surroundings. That question is already dealt with through the planning system and S106 agreements whereby developers have to contribute often very significant amounts towards improving local infrastructure. This applies regardless of Green Belt status. There are plenty of well connected settlements already within the Green Belt, so it's not as though it's an infrastructure desert.

    Yes, some settlements are going to get a little bit bigger. Others will shrink. That's a normal pattern that has existed for hundreds of years.

    Just to emphasise the point, here are two Streetview locations near me. Can you guess which one is designated Green Belt?

    Immigration is an issue for the Home Office but while it's likely to reduce somewhat from the last peak, it's not going away, just like any other developed country with a birth rate well below 2.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833

    Forgot about this one. Clearly there are nice bits of non-green belt land and not so nice bits of the green belt.

    That said, Rayner seems to be on a mission doomed to fail, according to those in the housebuilding industry. Labour can issue all the leftie diktats that they want but they will come up against commercial reality sooner or later.


    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    No doubt they're challenging targets - as they should be - but I can't find any corroborating quotes from trade press and the Telegraph is firmly in the Nimby camp. Can safely ignore.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660

    I appreciate it’s probably a cost of land thing, but every sort of notable architectural house that I seem to see via social media is always in the middle of some forest, with some big glass wall where the nature “softens up” the building.


    are there any modern houses like this that aren’t?

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,766

    St Leonard's in Exeter. They have to be modern architecture 'reinterpreting' the white stucco Regency stuff. There are some that feature glass more prominently, but the idea that pastiche is bad (take note, King Brian) is worthy.


  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    Yes. Not sure what you have in mind but have a look through ArchDaily for some examples.

    You're not wrong, though. It's very difficult to find an urban site where you can build.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833
    edited August 17

    I was always taught that targets need to be challenging and achievable.

    I take it you can't find any expert views that says Labour will achieve their targets? If not then I can safely ignore your view on this.

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817
    edited August 17

    You were complaining that they'd reduced the London target the other day. Make your mind up 🙂. There are views other than the three people still working at the Telegraph.

    We've built similar quantities before with a far more basic construction industry, so there's no intrinsic reason we can't do the same now. I don't think the handful of naysayers the Telegraph have rounded up have any more of a crystal ball than anyone else, though, so we'll have to see. In any case it's for local authorities to meet the targets that have been set rather than central government.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • monkimark
    monkimark Posts: 1,952

    The story you posted basically blames the Tories (who had a similar target of 300,000 home per year I believe)

    A diminished pipeline of existing planning approvals means Labour is predestined to fail in delivering its key manifesto pledge this parliament, according to developers.

  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,833

    You said that the London target were reduced as they weren't achievable 😉

    The last time we built this much was a long time ago. What makes you think that local authorities can click their fingers and make it happen just because Labour have issues their targets? And what makes you think they can deliver all of the related infrastructure? Does the private sector have the capacity?

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,817

    Nobody has a crystal ball, so we won't know until at least a couple of years in whether things are moving in the right direction. First step is at least having a target (remember your lot didn't want targets at all) and revising the NPPF. That's in progress. Then Local Authorities will need to update their Local Plans. That addresses the shortage of existing approvals.

    Developers are obviously going to have to mobilise and there's probably a need to look strategically at trades training, but I don't think we can doubt that there is demand for housing. There's probably also some work to be done in making finance more available for smaller developers, who are more suited to the thousands of small sites dotted around our towns and cities.

    But sure, if we approach with a loser's can't-be-done attitude then it probably won't happen.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,657

    I vaguely remember that when it came to covid tests (etc) that outlandish targets were the order of the day and to be much admired.