Olympics 2024

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660

    He’s also the bitchiest commentator around too. Meouw

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited August 1

    I genuinely think they’re backwards.

    Unless we find a physiological reason that says slow slow sprint is faster over a given distance compared to even pacing, it’s ought not be tactical. I don’t think examples of people winning with badly paced races really answers that conundrum, right?

    Rowers are in their own heads. Like I said, it’s not many sports where they carry someone in the boat to motivate… the sports equivalent of Bez

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379

    Rick terribly sorry, but rowing is an endurance sport, not a sprint. Race times.vsry from 5.30- 7+ minutes depending on boat class. So falls between 1500m and 3000m in running.

    Like those sports, the athletes have an anaerobic budget to spend, and how they spend it varies over the course of a race. How much they have is athlete dependent.

    No idea what you are talking about when it comes to technique. Suspect neither do other rowers. But on technique, some rowers are better at higher rates than others. Some better at starts, due to peak power available, or their height. Some are better able to handle rough conditions, which change over a course. Also factor in that the cost of a push varies depending on those conditions.

    Psychology doesn't play a part in any sport does it Rick? Not at all a benefit to be in the lead, or to have momentum.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited August 1

    You’re just describing different physiological strengths or weaknesses that contribute to their fastest journey from A to B.

    i mean, I have some coaching qualifications for rowing, albeit quite old now. I’m not a novice at this stuff, nor at the technique.

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    edited August 1

    Why are you talking such nonsense then? And why are your views so out of kilter with people who have actually held an oar?

    And I'm not talking about psychological differences. It's the interplay between physiology, conditions, technique and psychology. Bit like lots of sports.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited August 1

    I’m reminded of the O Donovan brothers who take a similar view to me.

    I think there is a lot of lore, machismo and egos that turn a lane race into something more than it is.

    Your fastest race from A to B is always your best chance. That you’re struggling to understand that shows you’re just listening to the macho vibes and not actually thinking about performance.

    Rowing is still dominated by men and women who have just ridiculous physical prowess and they still share the “this is how I won it” mentality, not necessarily “this is the optimum way”

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660

    Anyway, Brit women’s 4 get payback for the women’s quad success yesterday, and lose by a similar margin to the Dutch

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379

    Within reason, yes, there is an optimum way from A to B. But that's the case in other sports. The drafting effect in running is negligible, but runners don't do this. Nor do cyclists on climbs. Quickest way up Alpe Duez doesn't involve any time sprinting out of the saddle. They do so because the quickest way up in relation to an opponent might not be the quickest way up for you.

  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444

    In most sports a slight negative split is usually quickest as you can always produce a bit of an anaerobic sprint right at the end, but obviously if you do that at the start you'll be unable to hold threshold pace for the rest of the race as you'll be in oxygen debt. I guess there's also the psychological aspect if another team gets ahead of you as well.

    I would assume GB had a race plan in that race which involved sprinting the last 4-500, I doubt they are doing this totally on the fly!

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,025

    How do you know what your fastest race is? Surely this depends on training and conditions and will be unknown.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660

    the highest even effort that does not result in a collapse before the finish. AMA

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    edited August 1

    Those two Irish scullers were outliers in their event, by the way. The guy who stroked that boat had a technique that wouldn't work in any other boat and with any other rower. If you get to that level rowing in a way that would cause long term injury to most people, losing most of the finish launching water upwards, chances are you are someone who just does it your way regardless of what coach is saying.

    So they were fast, but were they as fast as they could have been?

    Edit - they also had a wicked sprint, which rather damages your argument if they are your example.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited August 1

    That’ll by why Kipchoge famously had a phalanx of runners to draft and a car with windbreak to follow for his 2hr effort.

    And drafting is material on the Alp as they’re going at 20+kph. So again, the competitors around you affect your race and visa versa.

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 22,025
    edited August 1

    How is that known in advance? I don't see how it is different to a bike TT.

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379

    He had pace makers. Hard to say if the actual draft was significant, any more so than aerodynamic sunglasses. Since runners run side by side a lot when racing against each other, and don't stay in groups on flat courses until the final few metres, it kind of tells me that it's not that big a factor.

  • Recycled, perhaps. The "Eat more carbs" has definitely been quite prominent recently.

  • "Lane racing = no tactics" is inconsistent with reality, though not inconsistent with even pacing being the best strategy.

    When W&G Junior made her competitive debut in the 200 freestyle aged 13, she got a bit carried away, and matched the fastest swimmer alongside her over the first 50m, before dying a horrible death from 125m onwards. She resolved to do her own thing from thereon. Her first 50 that day remains her fastest ever first 50, despite having improved by 10s+ overall at the distance.

    All subsequent major races have followed the standard blueprint: Watch the opposition steam into the distance in the first 100m and then catch most of them up in the second half, simply by maintaining more speed than her rivals. The tricky part is judging how far to let key rivals get ahead before upping the effort levels.

    Fairly obviously, I hope, to maintain a pace involves an increasing level of pain, the best proxy for effort level whilst swimming. Too far ahead, and you'll never catch up; too little ahead and you'll die with them in the second half. Equally obviously, I hope, you don't know how fast you're going in absolute terms (any form of pacing from poolside is against the rules) or what your best performance on the day might be. e.g. Junior's PB was 2:10, but on a good day, she could be anything between 2:11 and 2:13, which represents quite a difference in terms of lap times for optimum pacing strategy.

    So there is no alternative but to base your pacing strategy on past experience and what's happening in real time in your race, which I think is "tactics" in long-winded form. Spectators' favourite races are in finals where someone in an outside lane "goes for it" in the hope they get so far ahead un-noticed that supposedly faster rivals in the middle don't pull them back. (It's apparently rare to know how you've done in a swimming race at the end other than relative to the lanes alongside - maybe 2 each side - until you've seen the scoreboard.)

    Sometimes swimmers / relay teams will hold back in the heats to get an outside lane to benefit from this, so the race can start the day before the race!

    All that said, at the higher ends of the swimming world, PBs for non-sprint distances i.e. 200m+ are pretty much all done via even pacing, with 2 seconds off the first length due to the dive. But not every race is a PB. Most times folk get things wrong, albeit by small margins, and go more slowly than perhaps they could have done, but top level sport depends very heavily on such "fine margins".

    And obviously, the tactics in multi-lane racing are very much simpler than mass-start cycling or running races, but the tactics are still a key element of the race.

  • Re technique, one tactical option for rowers in multi-lane racing is to push earlier than key rivals might suspect and hope the pressure of being in an unexpected situation forces their technique to break down.

  • I've made the point a couple of times above that you can't know this in advance. Hence you can't go at your precise optimum pace from the start as a matter of choice.

  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,964

    Impressed by Women's Beach Volleyball 1st thing in the morning earlier this week. Spain v Italy. I was transfixed. Not sure who won.

    Turkiye shooting man with an air pistol and one had in pocket. No eye patch thing or ear defenders. Just shooting like it's his next job.

    Other good thing too. Too many to mention. Some baffling. Some incredible.


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811

    For a few years in my early teens, our Scout group manned the start boats/pontoons at the Evesham Regatta. I recall a pretty high ratio of macho egos, and not all facing backwards. The older competitors, particularly single sculls tended to be much less dickish.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • seanoconn
    seanoconn Posts: 11,739
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,610

    The rumour is the Turkish shooter is one of the world's top hitmen.

    Trump would been dead if he'd been given the gig instead of the student.

  • seanoconn
    seanoconn Posts: 11,739
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • seanoconn
    seanoconn Posts: 11,739

    Murray going out with a bang looking tough atm.

    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • I am going to say this, and appreciate I am in a minority. I always thought Murray was more naturally talented than Djokovic and Nadal. I am not suggesting he was a better player, obviously the results speak for themselves.

  • seanoconn
    seanoconn Posts: 11,739
    edited August 2

    Possibly, you could make an argument for. He did have a wonderful feel for the ball and was a brilliant defensive player but seemed to get better results when he was attack minded.

    I grew up with the likes of Jeremy Bates and reaching the last 16 of Wimbledon once a year was a big deal. Murray was the real deal, I’ll miss him, a huge hole for British tennis to fill.

    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • seanoconn
    seanoconn Posts: 11,739

    Track starts today! Whoop whoop! I 💕 Athletics and I 💕 athletic women in little knickers, win win.

    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי