Olympics 2024
Comments
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Hydrofoils!
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Yee and Bergere did exactly the same time for the final sector (4:27 for 1.45km) - Wilde was 18 seconds slower. He really misjudged it.
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Wow. Bloke on internet know more about rowing than rowers! Unbelievable, until you know the identify of the bloke on the internet, at which point it becomes entirely predictable, and equally predicably, wrong.
But seriously, in multi-lane racing in variable conditions (hint: the wind and chop on a rowing course are not constants) there is no point targeting a time. If it's three to the final then if you finish top three then you've gone quickly enough. If you don't then you haven't.
Before the final, the trick is to go quickly enough, without expending too much energy, all of which requires coordinated moves within a crew. There's no point half the crew taking it steadily whilst the other half is going for it. In the final, you aim to get from A to B as quickly as possible (obviously), with the tactical element being about judging how hard to push early on to establish a lead, or to keep the oppo to a lead you feel you can pull back and judging when to start winding up for the finish.
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I have some credentials. I’ve coxed the polish national lightweight 8 a few times as well as a vet crew with about 6 Olympic medals between them.
Am not a novice when it comes to rowing or rowing tactics - after all, I was responsible for the race calls!
I’ve only been in a couple of genuine elite races but that’s probably more than most here…
im sure you know best as another bloke on the internet (you could have guessed the gobby small light bloke who grew up in Cambridge probably did some coxing 😜😜)
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Cool. With reflection you'll soon realise that you were talking nonsense then!
But seriously, I think the comments about racing the opponents are just to highlight that times don't matter per se, rather than to suggest that in tight races, crews don't aim to complete the course in the shortest time period they can manage.
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Lol I joke that there’s a reason rowers need to carry a small person to abuse them in the boat to get them to row hard enough.
We all know that the fastest way to row a certain distance is to row it as evenly as possible.
Often the boats that look like they have fast finishes are in fact just slowing down less quickly - as everyone gets caught in the race and doesn’t pace it properly. The women’s quad is a good example of that if you look at the pacing.
I spent so much time basically trying to find that level with the crew, that speed that was right on the limit. Hard to find but not for Olympians.
Now, the Bumps, *that* is tactical.
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Re "We all know that the fastest way to row a certain distance is to row it as evenly as possible" the quirk here is how do you respond if the oppo does something unexpected?
Good example would be the Lucerne 2- in 1994, where Redgrave and Pinsent came perilously close to losing, which they never did, other than in 1992 when Redgrave was ill.
The Canadians and the Germans shot off the start and quickly established a lead. R&P never changed their race strategy before the half way point, assuming that anyone materially ahead of them at that point would be doing a "fly and die". But though the Canadians did indeed quickly die after their fly, the Germans kept going and had a couple of lengths at least at the half way point.
Redgrave called the usual 1000m push, but nothing really happened, as the Germans were doing the same. He called another one at 750 to go and though they gained a bit of ground, they were still off the pace. So apparently - per Pinsent's autobiography - Redgrave threw the race plan out of the window and they started their sprint from that point, and only just caught the Germans, setting a world record by circa 5 seconds, which lasted for another 8 years.
So they clearly went really quickly that day, but as a result of racing the opponent, not sticking to an evenly distributed effort per the race plan.
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Yeah they’re in their own heads. It’s all mind games to get the best out of themselves
If you rode a flat TT in the Tour with “pushes” you’d think they’re mad. Rowing doesn’t use a different cardio system. It’s still a flat out 6 min effort.
We marvel at the individual 4km pursuit but we all know riding it evenly is the fastest, always.
Honestly, I think the combination of it being a high technique sport which relies on synchronicity with your teammates, and the fact you're racing backwards, really messes with the heads of people, and so they need the race to really dig as deep as they need to - but it is not the fastest. We know it isn't, and as much as people say it's not about times, and in the rounds maybe it isn't, but we do know in a race where you cannot interfere with the boats around you, your fastest time is always the best.
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Yeah I only booked a week or so ago, booked based on forecast... Had 2 choices and went for the more expensive one which didn't have complaints about broken AC! Wasn't as expensive as I thought it might be. In a nice air conditioned office during the day. Although I would rather be at the Olympics...
Lots of falling in the BMX. Kieran seems to have done alright although I have no idea what is good here.
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Good day at the Olymipics today for team GB. It's not every day that you both beat the French and pass the Dutchies on the left hand side....
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]3 -
So I probably agree with you, with the caveat that prior to the end of the race, you don't know what your pace on the day actually was, in order to know your optimum pacing strategy.
You can experience this with a proper FTP test i.e. riding at the highest average power you can for an hour. You might start at your current FTP, or your estimated FTP based on recent tests, and there are three potential outcomes, if you "empty your tanks" for the hour:
i) You're on a flyer and can push on to a higher than expected average power
ii) You go at a constant power throughout
iii) You do a fly and die and wish you'd set off a bit slower
Similarly, you can see this in a Team Pursuit, where teams sometimes fold like a pack of cards in the last kilo having overestimated their performance on the day.
So in a rowing race there are basically three strategies:
i) Set off faster than is realistically sensible, and hope establishing a big lead causes tension-induced inefficiencies in rivals' technique
ii) Set off at what you think is the pace you can sustain, and keep going until the end, regardless of whether backing off a bit in the middle part of the race might be a good idea if you're not quite "on it" on the day
iii) Set off slightly conservatively, and then push on 500-750 in, if you're on a really good day, or simply have to get a shift on to deal with someone doing (i) otherwise adopt (ii)
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Yeah the lack of gearing makes it trickier to adjust than a bike, but at the elite level if you don’t know that edge between going too fast and too slow I’d say you have some work to do.
I remember getting quite upset with my crew when they had enough in the tank for a real acceleration and surge in the finish of drag races.
I do think parts of rowing are still pretty Neanderthal in their approach - too macho and too many egos.
I’d be curious to see how a Kerrison type would do in rowing. I suspect it would be considered a revolution.
i would consider the bumps however.
If I was designing rowing at the Olympics I’d run a 2km drag race to determine your position in the ladder and run five nights of eight boat bumps races, one each day, and hand out medals for the final ladder positions.
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Just been catching up with the rowing. Seriously good effort from the GB women’s quad. 👏👏
Did people forget to tell Matt Pinsent that once he stopped full time training, he’d need to reduce the calorie intake? Or has he developed a medical issue?
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I know he’s always been in shape. It just the first time I’ve seen him that that shape was round!
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Typical cock. Sorry cox.
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The Chinese swimmer just did a Pogacar style performance.
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I think that's the race that delivered NI's 3rd Gold of this Olympics - Hannah Scott from Coleraine
NI Summer Olympic Golds 1922-2020 :3
Ni Summer Olympic Golds in last 24 hours : 3
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Made me have a little chuckle that.
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There was definitely a tone of incredulity in the commentary. Almost half a second off the world record in what seems to be regarded as a slow pool. The lad has obviously been eating his beef.
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Meanwhile the bloke on the triathlon commentary must have been taking tips from Rob Hatch... "I have never seen anything like that before". Erm well the other bloke overtook Yee and then Yee passed him back a bit later on. Wouldn't say it was all that unusual.
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Interesting thoughts about rowing training. FWIW, I think things are the other way round. There are new / newish concepts in cycling training such as structuring training round "zones", needing to do high intensity stuff to maximise overall performance and eating enough carbs before such sessions to fuel that intensity that were standard stuff in rowing in the early 90s.
All my best hill-climbing exploits on a bike came off the back of old rowing training regimes adapted for the turbo. It was only when I started training like a proper cyclist that I started slowing down. Though that might be age-related!
Caveat - I'm cynical and tend to believe that a "new" trend in cycling training / prep, e.g. eating more carbs, is just a cover for doping-related developments.
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All those triathletes and distance runners sprinting towards the end. If they've got energy left for a sprint they've timed it wrong. Same with the swimmers.
I haven't seriously considered that Rick might be talking bollocks.
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Triathlon is different because you can interfere with the other’s race, plus there is drafting.
Same with running - at the speed they go at there is an advantage to drafting, and obviously only the fastest over the whole distance have an interest in running the race at an even speed - those with faster finishes are incentivised to not run a fast race. That’s why the private races like London etc are run differently to the Olympic because they have pace setters to take out some of the tactical racing.
In middle and long distance track racing, having priority on the bend is also advantageous as you make your rivals have to race around you.
Plus those races are a lot longer.
Ie you can affect their race. You can’t in rowing, unless it’s the boat race or the bumps.
And yes, swimmers is a little different, especially with longer distances because it’s also about how efficiently you can race at sprint speeds - whether your cardio can handle the leg kicks etc so there is a technique element (because a sprint rowing technique is quite different to a longer distance technique) that I don’t think is relevant to rowing. If you look at the swimming speeds, most late surges are actually about not collapsing and maintaining your speed while everyone around you is slowing down. You never see an actual speed increase in the run into the final few metres.
Genuinely, if you think there are tactics to a 2km rowing race, what on earth do you think cycling TTers or speed skaters are banging on about.
Lane racing = no tactics
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I'm not sure they count as new or newish, they were around when I was a teenager, which was quite a long time ago now...
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Surely the women's quad yesterday is a clear example of tactics? The Dutch made a tactical decision to go as hard as they could from start to finish (yes, doing what you say RC in terms of a drag race, but still a tactical choice in my book), whereas the Brits made a decision to keep them within a manageable distance and then sprint the last 400-500m. If it was a case of just going as hard as possible, the Brits would have matched the Dutch from the outset. They must have made a choice, they didn't just row along idly and then when they realised they were going to lose suddenly smash it for 500m and luckily they won. We are talking Olympic athletes here, surely the athletes and their coaches are making tactical decisions, or am I missing something?
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The triathlon commentators were remarkably ill-equipped to do a good job of it.
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Sorry Rick, but you’re wrong about the distance swimmers never increasing their speed into the finish. Grant Hackett, WR in the 800 back in 2008, his last 100 was almost 3 seconds quicker than any of the previous 6. Opened with a 52 high off the blocks, cruised the next 6x100 in 56’s, then kicked home the last 100 in low 53, and the last 50 was quickest still.
Plenty of other examples.
Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
They seem to have got rid of a fair few experienced commentators across a range of sports and replaced them with people who seem ill equipped. The MTB commentary was terrible and the rowing has been poor (even with Moe Sbihi).
The best commentator in terms of technical knowledge and being able to explain things to the layman is Leon Taylor who does the diving. He is miles ahead of pretty much every other commentator.
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