LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
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About 100 abstained tho’, which split the party around 50/50.
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I think the current scenario when some drugs are criminalised while others are on sale in the corner shop is ridiculous. I'm not a big fan of banning things, but if you are going to ban things due to the huge public cost arising from their use, tobacco should be front of the queue, not given a pass.
The new converts to 'personal freedom' are a bunch of galloping hypocrites and I'm surprised our resident hypocrisy monitor hasn't been more vocal about it.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I don’t think banning more is the solution.
Why are we interested in making a black market for tobacco?
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And it places safeguarding of children as a higher priority than the views re transitioning of those with vested interests. This should always have been the case, but sadly wasn't.
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Because it will be much smaller than the current market and fewer people will die. Hth.
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And also, I strongly suspect that it already exists.
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I struggle a bit with the issue not least because I think there is a strong argument to legalise heroin.
Banning cigarettes would significantly reduce litter and the country has managed to ban plastic straws, so there is a precedent for that.
Plus, smoking does affect other people even if that impact is now limited because people smoke outside or in their homes.
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There is already a black market for tobacco.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The Lib dems had decriminalisation of cannabis on their last manifesto, and none of them voted against this.
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So we're going to make the market bigger? I'm genuinely baffled. Have we learned nothing from prohibition of substances?
How are you gonna legalise weed without legal tobacco?!
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But isn’t this a bit different. The ban is on selling cigarettes and vapes to anyone born on or before 2009. So tobacco is still permitted, this is just meant to deter new smokers.
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Do kids still smoke? I thought they largely spent money on phones now.
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Phones are probably cheaper than cigarettes at this point.
Quite a few youg guys (early 20s) still smoke on site, probably just to get a break from working though
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No but they like vapes.
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Are they going to be banned?
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vapes, including thc.
I can't see why anyone would start vaping nicotine if they didn't already smoke, but there you go.
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Yes in that the sales will be restricted as per cigarettes. They will also clamp down on the pretty colours and sweety flavours.
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Would be good if they could further restrict where people can smoke. I can provide some helpful suggestions for this:
- any public amenity such as a beach, park, playground etc
- any sheltered location eg. bus shelter
- within 2m of any child
Then some new littering laws should come into effect. Anyone caught throwing away cigarettes should be fined and made to spend several hours picking up litter. This should be on a full cost recovery basis, so the public doesn't need to fund it.
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I think I don't care what people do if it doesn't affect anyone else, but smoking is so anti-social, I can't find the energy to support the liberal position.
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In the period immediately post lockdowns, lots of my daughters friends etc started smoking, because if they were in pubs they had to sit at tables of four/six and not move about, but if they went outside to the smoking area they could mix freely.
I know its moved on now, but I reckon there must be some sort of uptick in the amount that stuck with it.
2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
Last time I went to A'Dam (quite a while now), there were cafes etc where you could smoke (pure) weed inside but not mixed with tobacco due to smoking laws.
Was a tough weekend.
2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
Someone needs to ask those MPs arguing against this on the principle of individual liberty what their position is on crack cocaine.
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As above, I'm largely in favour of legalising it along with heroin, but I'm also largely happy with banning smoking, so we all have our contradictions. I should imagine the MPs you reference will be concerned about the mind altering impacts of crack cocaine and the impact on others, so their position may not be as inconsistent as you think.
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I'm a bit torn on the smoking thing. I'm generally of the view that you're free kill yourself any way you choose as long as it doesn't affect anyone else - which by and large smoking doesn't these days. Also struggle to see how they will enforce it when they have enough trouble enforcing banned substances - I mean, remember how easy was it to get hold of booze if we wanted some when we were under age?
But on the other hand, nicotine is pretty addictive and it's not something that is easy to quit once you're hooked - saw that with my old man. Also as has been mentioned above, it will probably shrink the market as not everyone will try to get round it and likely save/prolong quite a lot of lives.
What I'm not sure about is whether tobacco revenues are more than the cost of treating the effects of smoking. Maybe that should be the deciding factor?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
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i'm supportive of the measure, though i'd prefer a, say, three year timeline to ban tobacco outright, ditto for vapes containing nicotine
a few days mild cold turkey and the health of millions will be markedly improved
there's no benefit to addictive recreational drugs, just damaged lives, disease, waste, crime and pollution
no doubt there'll be some smuggling, but that's already gone on for decades to evade duty/vat
only downside is the impact on the few remaining newsagents, the ones i've known for decades have almost all gone - internet killed off much of their magazine business, covid followed up by crashing newspaper sales, vapes/tobacco probably keep a few going - some will be able to (further) transition to corner shop groceries, but i'd think many will just close
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
Which is really the point I was making above. In a country where there is universal state healthcare, it's a reasonable policy decision for the state to want to reduce smoking and thereby save on healthcare costs (among other things, such as misery).
If we lived in a country where everyone sorted their own healthcare insurance, and where they would be astronomical for smokers, perhaps I'd feel differently. But we dont, and on balance nor should we go that way.
Hence, I'm fine with smoking not being legal eventually. Also fine with not criminalising people who get it illegally. That's consistent with policy regarding other "soft" drugs.
Alcohol and other ingestables that are bad for us, like Haagen Das, are another issue. I hope to fuck they don't make either of those illegal.
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More reason to get rid of the NHS, then, if that is an effective argument. Maybe we should ban motorcycles too for the same reason. Ridiculous
The evidence for making drugs criminal is appalling. I don't understand why everyone has forgotten this suddenly.
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Fair enough, in which case not too bothered if they do press on with the ban.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Are there any stats to back that up? Everyone dies, and healthy people tend to die slowly, and hence expensively, even if the expense is via a carehome with relatively little actual healthcare involved. If smokers do succumb then it tends to be quite quickly, and therefore they die relatively cheaply. On top of that, smokers tend to die a few years earlier than healthy folk, saving on pension costs, whilst not really compromising their ability to work an economically productive (and hence tax paying) life.
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