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Teams are overrated *spoiler*

zest28zest28 Posts: 373
edited September 2020 in Pro race
Pogacar (21 years old) is beating Ineos Grenadiers and all other teams except JV all by himself. His team is essentially useless and all he does is simply hanging on to the JV train.

So what are all the other teams doing with their money when a 21-year kid beats them all by himself? It seems the importance of "team" is highly overrated and it is simply about being the best rider.

Pogacar would have been in yellow if it wasn't for his problem in the 1st week even.

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  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,679
    Is that "problem in the first week" the one where his team failed to protect him and keep him up front in the crosswinds?
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Lanterne_RogueLanterne_Rogue Posts: 3,679
    'cause, y'know, a better team might have been useful.

    #JustSayin
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • 50x1150x11 Posts: 405
    Here he is again.

    I can't believe you managed to show a reason for the thing you were arguing against in your own argument.
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,723
    Pogacar wouldn't have been allowed to make the gains he did if he wasn't already behind.

    Name the last winner that had anything less than a very decent team.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,293
    edited September 2020
    Teams are mostly used defensively. If Pogacar was leading he'd be easier to attack.

    A strong team can help attacking by reducing the defences of the rider(s) you want to attack - as attempted by Bahrain today - and to mould the pace of the race to your strengths

    And they're also useful for negotiating the obstacles of week one.


    When they don't seem useful is when their aims coincide with aims of a similar rider. For example, Bahrain did today what Astana couldn't for Lopez.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,825
    As above, had he ever led he would have really struggled without a team. It's also on those non-GC days where a strong team helps to keep you out of trouble or help get you back into contention after a crash or mechanical.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,911
    You fools!
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,293
    edited September 2020
    salsiccia1 said:


    Name the last winner that had anything less than a very decent team.


    Evans had a good flatlands team but not much more than Steve Morabito on the climbs. Similarly LeMond's 1989 team was a great team if you were doing the Tour of Flanders.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • specialgueststarspecialgueststar Posts: 3,417
    There must be a Latin saying for reasoning against your own argument. Ratio arguementem
  • me-109me-109 Posts: 1,625
    RichN95. said:

    salsiccia1 said:


    Name the last winner that had anything less than a very decent team.


    Evans had a good flatlands team but not much more than Steve Morabito on the climbs. Similarly LeMond's 1989 team was a great team if you were doing the Tour of Flanders.
    His '86 team weren't particularly riding for him either.
  • davidofdavidof Posts: 2,835
    edited September 2020
    specialgueststar said:

    There must be a Latin saying for reasoning against your own argument. Ratio arguementem

    inflantur sua petard tua ?
    BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
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  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,501
    edited September 2020
    Ulrich would have cracked completly in the voges without udo bolts
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • craigus89craigus89 Posts: 887
    Oh hi there, Pog calling...
  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,723
    Wahay!
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 373
    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 5,232
    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 373
    edited September 2020
    Dorset_Boy said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 2,707
    Well if Dumoulin never attacks and makes Pogacar chase, allowing Roglic to counter and drop Pogacar then they aren't really making full use of having a strong team. The mountain train tactic only works if the rivals get dropped off the wheel from the fierce tempo set (dissuading attacks) and/or if the leader is greatly superior in the ITT like Wiggins for example.
    PTP Champion 2019
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,413
    zest28 said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
    I ‘m surprised that you are not suggesting that Pogacar only won because he is a triathlete. Because in your previous trolling posts they can beat any body in professional cycling.
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 373
    edited September 2020
    webboo said:

    zest28 said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
    I ‘m surprised that you are not suggesting that Pogacar only won because he is a triathlete. Because in your previous trolling posts they can beat any body in professional cycling.
    Lance Armstrong started as a triathlete. He ended up doing pretty well in road cycling.

    And I suggest you learn to read because you are trolling. I never said ALL road cyclists.

    Wiggins (FTP > 470 Watts), Contador (FTP > 7 Watts / kg) are example of road cyclists who are faster than Iron Man athletes.

    Fact is, Ineos was terrible on Zwift, even worse than some Iron Man athletes (who have peak FTP of 420 Watts). Ineos would not have been able to beat some iron athletes quite shockingly.

    So guess who was right after all when you saw how Ineos got blown to pieces this TdF?
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 373
    edited September 2020
    m.r.m. said:

    Well if Dumoulin never attacks and makes Pogacar chase, allowing Roglic to counter and drop Pogacar then they aren't really making full use of having a strong team. The mountain train tactic only works if the rivals get dropped off the wheel from the fierce tempo set (dissuading attacks) and/or if the leader is greatly superior in the ITT like Wiggins for example.

    Problem with Pogacar, he is superior over every JV teammate. He can survive the mountain train without a sweat (because he was able to sprint afterwards climbing almost at 40km/h and winning the stage). And he is better in TT than Roglic.

    So Pogacar is just going to sit on the wheel of Roglic and just cope with whatever JV throws at him (which he can handle as he is superior over every team member of JV) and then crush Roglic in the TT for the TdF win.
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,413
    You do realise Zwift is not real racing. It’s like winning a Formula one race on a play station and claiming you are better than Lewis Hamilton.
  • zest28zest28 Posts: 373
    edited September 2020
    webboo said:

    You do realise Zwift is not real racing. It’s like winning a Formula one race on a play station and claiming you are better than Lewis Hamilton.

    Watts is watts. Whether you do it indoors or outdoor is not relevant. There are pro teams (such as NTT pro cycling) who actually use Zwift for FTP testing. So those pro teams do take those power numbers seriously.

    If you cannot sustain 400 Watts for 1 hour on Zwift, you got a big problem because other pro's can do it. And that is were my concerns with Ineos started as their power numbers were not competitive at all.

    Now, you will obviously miss bike handling skills with Zwift, but physical fitness is the most important aspect in cycling.
  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    edited September 2020
    webboo said:

    You do realise Zwift is not real racing. It’s like winning a Formula one race on a play station and claiming you are better than Lewis Hamilton.

    Ha ha ha ha I have a colleague like this who likes to boast about his 'climb' times of the big Cols to me while he's sat on a stationary bike, with no actual gradient, no road surface, no wind, angry sun, biting cold, or annoying flies and wasps trying to get the electrolytes in your bottles and the gel residue from around your mouth... and he's doing all this 'climbing' below sea level.

    He's a d*ck.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,509
    above_the_cows said:

    webboo said:

    You do realise Zwift is not real racing. It’s like winning a Formula one race on a play station and claiming you are better than Lewis Hamilton.

    Ha ha ha ha I have a colleague like this who likes to boast about his 'climb' times of the big Cols to me while he's sat on a stationary bike, with no actual gradient, no road surface, no wind, angry sun, biting cold, or annoying flies and wasps trying to get the electrolytes in your bottles and the gel residue from around your mouth... and he's doing all this 'climbing' below sea level.

    He's a d*ck.
    Well, you say that but my Alpe du Zwift times match up surprisingly closely with real life alpine climbs - of all the things I've done on Zwift grinding it out up a climb for an hour is about the most realistic thing I've come across.

    Obviously you miss all the other stuff. The thing I miss the most actually is the views... and the descents, the wind in your hair (not the wind from the bank of fans in front of my bike...).

    The racing is very different. An hour long race on Zwift is a very long race, most of them are much shorter - after all, it is a computer game.
  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    But you're an actual cyclist. This guy is has a belly and owns a hybrid when he isn't riding on the gym's Zwift bikes... He's never cycled outside the Randstand.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • feelgoodlostfeelgoodlost Posts: 199
    zest28 said:

    webboo said:

    You do realise Zwift is not real racing. It’s like winning a Formula one race on a play station and claiming you are better than Lewis Hamilton.

    Watts is watts. Whether you do it indoors or outdoor is not relevant. There are pro teams (such as NTT pro cycling) who actually use Zwift for FTP testing. So those pro teams do take those power numbers seriously.

    If you cannot sustain 400 Watts for 1 hour on Zwift, you got a big problem because other pro's can do it. And that is were my concerns with Ineos started as their power numbers were not competitive at all.

    Now, you will obviously miss bike handling skills with Zwift, but physical fitness is the most important aspect in cycling.
    You are a moron.
    https://www.strava.com/athletes/442763
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,911
    I repeat...
    pblakeney said:

    You fools!

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • roscoeroscoe Posts: 189
    zest28 said:

    webboo said:

    zest28 said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
    I ‘m surprised that you are not suggesting that Pogacar only won because he is a triathlete. Because in your previous trolling posts they can beat any body in professional cycling.
    Lance Armstrong started as a triathlete. He ended up doing pretty well in road cycling.

    And I suggest you learn to read because you are trolling. I never said ALL road cyclists.

    Wiggins (FTP > 470 Watts), Contador (FTP > 7 Watts / kg) are example of road cyclists who are faster than Iron Man athletes.

    Fact is, Ineos was terrible on Zwift, even worse than some Iron Man athletes (who have peak FTP of 420 Watts). Ineos would not have been able to beat some iron athletes quite shockingly.

    So guess who was right after all when you saw how Ineos got blown to pieces this TdF?
    Zwift? Seriously? You know it’s a game? It’s well known that Zwift performances do not necessarily equate to real world? Just ask Lionel Sanders et al.
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,501
    If pogacar had no team he would never have limited his losses in the crosswinds and he would not have won the tour .

    CASE CLOSED THE END
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
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