Forum home Road cycling forum Pro race

Teams are overrated *spoiler*

2»

Posts

  • zest28zest28 Posts: 373
    edited September 2020
    roscoe said:

    zest28 said:

    webboo said:

    zest28 said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
    I ‘m surprised that you are not suggesting that Pogacar only won because he is a triathlete. Because in your previous trolling posts they can beat any body in professional cycling.
    Lance Armstrong started as a triathlete. He ended up doing pretty well in road cycling.

    And I suggest you learn to read because you are trolling. I never said ALL road cyclists.

    Wiggins (FTP > 470 Watts), Contador (FTP > 7 Watts / kg) are example of road cyclists who are faster than Iron Man athletes.

    Fact is, Ineos was terrible on Zwift, even worse than some Iron Man athletes (who have peak FTP of 420 Watts). Ineos would not have been able to beat some iron athletes quite shockingly.

    So guess who was right after all when you saw how Ineos got blown to pieces this TdF?
    Zwift? Seriously? You know it’s a game? It’s well known that Zwift performances do not necessarily equate to real world? Just ask Lionel Sanders et al.
    Then why does he train 100% on Zwift rather than outdoors if it doesn’t translate to outdoors?

    He has a few KOM’s on Strava and podium finishes so it is working.

    Watts is watts. Peroid. Unless you are using a shitty power meter, the indoor versus outdoor power numbers are quite similar except in sprinting.

    Trek Segrafedo also has been training on Zwift for many months and they didn’t do too bad with Porte this Tour did they?

  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,506
    zest28 said:

    roscoe said:

    zest28 said:

    webboo said:

    zest28 said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
    I ‘m surprised that you are not suggesting that Pogacar only won because he is a triathlete. Because in your previous trolling posts they can beat any body in professional cycling.
    Lance Armstrong started as a triathlete. He ended up doing pretty well in road cycling.

    And I suggest you learn to read because you are trolling. I never said ALL road cyclists.

    Wiggins (FTP > 470 Watts), Contador (FTP > 7 Watts / kg) are example of road cyclists who are faster than Iron Man athletes.

    Fact is, Ineos was terrible on Zwift, even worse than some Iron Man athletes (who have peak FTP of 420 Watts). Ineos would not have been able to beat some iron athletes quite shockingly.

    So guess who was right after all when you saw how Ineos got blown to pieces this TdF?
    Zwift? Seriously? You know it’s a game? It’s well known that Zwift performances do not necessarily equate to real world? Just ask Lionel Sanders et al.
    Then why does he train 100% on Zwift rather than outdoors if it doesn’t translate to outdoors?

    He has a few KOM’s on Strava and podium finishes so it is working.

    Watts is watts. Peroid. Unless you are using a shitty power meter, the indoor versus outdoor power numbers are quite similar except in sprinting.

    Trek Segrafedo also has been training on Zwift for many months and they didn’t do too bad with Porte this Tour did they?

    Going to repeat this one last time
    If pogacar had no team he would never have limited his losses in the crosswinds and he would not have won the tour .

    CASE CLOSED. THE END .TEAMS AND REAL WORLD CONDITIONS MATTER
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 26,309

    If pogacar had no team he would never have limited his losses in the crosswinds and he would not have won the tour .

    CASE CLOSED THE END


    It was interesting re-watching that stage. The likes of Ewan and Bennett got caught out so Jumbo saved Van Aert for the sprint and generally didn't contribute as a team to driving the front group. WVA could have done wonders helping out. Meanwhile UAE were all on the front of group 2, mostly Vegard Stake Laengen
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,506
    edited September 2020
    RichN95. said:

    If pogacar had no team he would never have limited his losses in the crosswinds and he would not have won the tour .

    CASE CLOSED THE END


    It was interesting re-watching that stage. The likes of Ewan and Bennett got caught out so Jumbo saved Van Aert for the sprint and generally didn't contribute as a team to driving the front group. WVA could have done wonders helping out. Meanwhile UAE were all on the front of group 2, mostly Vegard Stake Laengen
    If ever you wanted proof that strategic decisions on team resource deployment mattered to the final outcome
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 12,506
    Portal would not have done that
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ProssPross Posts: 32,894
    zest28 said:

    roscoe said:

    zest28 said:

    webboo said:

    zest28 said:

    zest28 said:

    Yeah, teams are super overrated. The 21-year old kid even beats Jumbo-Vismo all by himself, something that Ineos with all the money in the world failed to do.

    If you had watched the race or had any understanding rather than living under a bridge, then you might have seen he just used another team instead.
    The point is, he did it without the help of his own team. So he did it all by himself.

    And there wasn't anything JV could do against him as Pogacar was able to deal with anything Jumbo-Visma was doing. So it was up to Roglic to beat Pogacar rather than JV as a team.
    I ‘m surprised that you are not suggesting that Pogacar only won because he is a triathlete. Because in your previous trolling posts they can beat any body in professional cycling.
    Lance Armstrong started as a triathlete. He ended up doing pretty well in road cycling.

    And I suggest you learn to read because you are trolling. I never said ALL road cyclists.

    Wiggins (FTP > 470 Watts), Contador (FTP > 7 Watts / kg) are example of road cyclists who are faster than Iron Man athletes.

    Fact is, Ineos was terrible on Zwift, even worse than some Iron Man athletes (who have peak FTP of 420 Watts). Ineos would not have been able to beat some iron athletes quite shockingly.

    So guess who was right after all when you saw how Ineos got blown to pieces this TdF?
    Zwift? Seriously? You know it’s a game? It’s well known that Zwift performances do not necessarily equate to real world? Just ask Lionel Sanders et al.
    Then why does he train 100% on Zwift rather than outdoors if it doesn’t translate to outdoors?

    He has a few KOM’s on Strava and podium finishes so it is working.

    Watts is watts. Peroid. Unless you are using a shitty power meter, the indoor versus outdoor power numbers are quite similar except in sprinting.

    Trek Segrafedo also has been training on Zwift for many months and they didn’t do too bad with Porte this Tour did they?

    People train on Zwift purely because it takes out all the issues that make structured training difficult on the road. It's far easier to ride at fixed watts when there is no traffic, junctions, ad else weather etc. Indoor training is great for that.

    Using it as a way to decide what pros are riding well is an exercise in futility, some bloke I an overheated garage at altitude is going to put out less watts than they would in a cool environment at sea level and virtually none of them would have been "racing" just using it to train with a maximum wattage.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,518
    RichN95. said:

    If pogacar had no team he would never have limited his losses in the crosswinds and he would not have won the tour .

    CASE CLOSED THE END


    It was interesting re-watching that stage. The likes of Ewan and Bennett got caught out so Jumbo saved Van Aert for the sprint and generally didn't contribute as a team to driving the front group. WVA could have done wonders helping out. Meanwhile UAE were all on the front of group 2, mostly Vegard Stake Laengen
    Interesting, I was thinking about going back to look at that.

    Wonder what would have happened if WVA had gone all in to increase the gap...

    Supports the idea that JV under-used their team strength.
  • DeadCalmDeadCalm Posts: 3,970
    m.r.m. said:

    Well if Dumoulin never attacks and makes Pogacar chase, allowing Roglic to counter and drop Pogacar then they aren't really making full use of having a strong team. The mountain train tactic only works if the rivals get dropped off the wheel from the fierce tempo set (dissuading attacks) and/or if the leader is greatly superior in the ITT like Wiggins for example.

    ^this.

    Some people seem to be assuming that the only tactic available to the strongest team is to ride at the front and control the race. It isn't A strong team can be used to disrupt the race and put the strongest rider under pressure until he hopefully breaks. Unless UAE seriously strengthen and assuming Pogacar looks as strong next year, I'd expect J-V and Ineos to attack the race with multiple potential GC threats early on. It could be a lot of fun.
    Team My Man 2022:

    Antwan Tolhoek, Sam Oomen, Tom Dumoulin, Thymen Arensman, Remco Evenepoel, Benoît Cosnefroy, Tom Pidcock, Mark Cavendish, Romain Bardet
Sign In or Register to comment.