I'm racist!

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Comments

  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Like what, Kingston?


    Determine in advance precisely what skills etc we need a candidate to have and build our shortlists of candidates upon that rather than going with "we just need to find good sales people / techies etc" - it is surprising how many companies think they do this but don't. Also look at where we are sourcing candidates today and whether that is actually providing us a broad view of the market, or if we are inadvertently narrowing down to "what we know". Another step we have taken is to widen who we use to interview candidates to bring a broader perspective into the task.

    Some suggestions are in here (not exclusively related to ethnicity), plus there are plenty of other useful website with ideas :

    https://www.socialtalent.co/blog/5-simp ... ganisation
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    :roll: ok. I didn't realise we were talking grad and grad plus recruitment.

    What about senior recruitment, where the problem is considerably more accute?
    _
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    :roll: ok. I didn't realise we were talking grad and grad plus recruitment.

    What about senior recruitment, where the problem is considerably more accute?


    I'm not just talking about recruiting grads, the principles apply right up through all levels of seniority.

    Why the rolling eyes ??????
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    Kingstonian wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    :roll: ok. I didn't realise we were talking grad and grad plus recruitment.

    What about senior recruitment, where the problem is considerably more accute?


    I'm not just talking about recruiting grads, the principles apply right up through all levels of seniority.

    Why the rolling eyes ??????

    I mean, you might as well be saying, "to be good at football, you need to score goals AND make sure the opponent doesn't score".
    _
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Kingstonian wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    :roll: ok. I didn't realise we were talking grad and grad plus recruitment.

    What about senior recruitment, where the problem is considerably more accute?


    I'm not just talking about recruiting grads, the principles apply right up through all levels of seniority.

    Why the rolling eyes ??????

    I mean, you might as well be saying, "to be good at football, you need to score goals AND make sure the opponent doesn't score".


    Errr, ok. Sometimes the simplest and most obvious things to do are what is needed, yet many aren't doing them. The approach we are taking is in general terms one that has been adopted by the big 4 accounting firms and many of the largest global firms in the IT sector to tackle the diversity issue, but I guess it won't work for everyone.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    So how successful have they been?

    https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/executive-board.html

    How's the ethnic diversity on that exco, for example?
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,643
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    So how successful have they been?

    https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/executive-board.html

    How's the ethnic diversity on that exco, for example?

    I'm never convinced that focusing on the top is that sensible. It takes a while for employment policies at the bottom to affect the top, but in the end it will.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    So how successful have they been?

    https://www.pwc.co.uk/who-we-are/executive-board.html

    How's the ethnic diversity on that exco, for example?

    I'm never convinced that focusing on the top is that sensible. It takes a while for employment policies at the bottom to affect the top, but in the end it will.

    From the research I've (had to) read, there's quite convincing arguments to say it needs to come from both ends.

    The bottom end is easier to solve, by and large, especially for big firms, who have monster intakes ever year.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    Leadership sets the tone, and non-diverse leadership a) performs more badly, b) doesn't present a good carrot for diverse juniors to get to the top and most importantly c) don't really know what the barriers are which prevent more diverse people making their way through the business.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,643
    I'm in the employ the best person for the job camp, but then I back myself to do this without consideration for race, gender etc. My conflict arises when I consider all the people out there responsible for employing who aren't capable of ignoring their prejudices, so that the best person for the job is more likely than not to look/sound like them. I have no solution to that.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I'm in the employ the best person for the job camp, but then I back myself to do this without consideration for race, gender etc. My conflict arises when I consider all the people out there responsible for employing who aren't capable of ignoring their prejudices, so that the best person for the job is more likely than not to look/sound like them. I have no solution to that.

    Well precisely.

    That's why I've pushed (successfully) for unconscious bias training here, and we're working on how to push back on feedback from clients that we suspect is more to do with unconscious bias than competency.

    If cultural fit is the biggest challenge for most organisations hiring (which I would say it is), it's very easy to throw unconscious bias around race and gender into a general 'not a good cultural fit' dismissal.

    When we're taking references, we're very conscious of certain turns of phrases or certain behaviours that are judged differently.

    The most obvious and well used are women who are "pushy" and "inflexible" (negative) whereas men can be "punchy" "ambitious" "strong willed" (positive). Happens ALL THE TIME.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,643
    You get references that offer an actual opinion? I thought that was unusual in any formal sense.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    TheBigBean wrote:
    You get references that offer an actual opinion? I thought that was unusual in any formal sense.

    Not if ya got the skillz.

    And yes, how the hell else am I supposed to know if someone is good at a job I've never done??
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,643
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    You get references that offer an actual opinion? I thought that was unusual in any formal sense.

    Not if ya got the skillz.

    And yes, how the hell else am I supposed to know if someone is good at a job I've never done??

    To be honest, I don't expect recruitment consultants / headhunters to know this. I like the idea though.
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    Yes, we have done unconscious bias training for everyone in the EMEA part of the org (irrespective of their role or seniority) and it was well received.

    Like most companies, we are on a journey. It will take time, and there is no one silver bullet.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    edited August 2017
    Funny things, references.

    I got a call a couple of years ago, from an old colleague. We'd parted ways back in 2005 when he moved to our Middle East business. Water goes under the bridge and I change jobs a couple of times, see more colleagues come and go. Him the same. 2014 and my phone rings - he's got a CV in front of him and he's deduced that I worked with the candidate for a couple of years. He wanted my opinion.

    Now this guy on the CV had left me a 'reference' on LinkedIn - saying that I was good at my job etc and that he had been impressed during the time when he was my manager. He was never my manager - we were peers and if anything, I managed him on some jobs. So he was basically extolling his own virtues as well as embellishing the facts.

    My advice to my old colleague was along the lines "be careful what this guy is telling you, I can't vouch for his experience during the last six years, but it turns out he's possibly rather creative with the truth..." I could have said worse, to be honest: "he's difficult to work with, he needs direction" etc. But my colleague didn't interview him anyway.

    We've gone way OT here.
    Ben

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,740
    FWIW there's a BIG difference between formal and informal references.
    _
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Oh of course.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,643
    How much does the unconscious bias training focus on attractiveness? I think this is probably the biggest one.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Ben6899 wrote:
    We've gone way OT here.
    Quite; no one's mentioned my racistness in pages!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,806
    I don't want to appear to be a bully by picking on a racist.
    Not quite sure what end of the PC scale that is. Hmmm.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,573
    Rolf F wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    We've gone way OT here.
    Quite; no one's mentioned my racistness in pages!
    I thought you would have been sent on a training course to sort it out by now Rolf.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    We've gone way OT here.
    Quite; no one's mentioned my racistness in pages!
    I thought you would have been sent on a training course to sort it out by now Rolf.

    I'm keeping it quiet at work. I just need to work out how many Caucasian women I can go out with before it becomes statistically obvious that I am racist. In my favour, it could take a long time before I get to that point.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,573
    Rolf F wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    We've gone way OT here.
    Quite; no one's mentioned my racistness in pages!
    I thought you would have been sent on a training course to sort it out by now Rolf.

    I'm keeping it quiet at work. I just need to work out how many Caucasian women I can go out with before it becomes statistically obvious that I am racist. In my favour, it could take a long time before I get to that point.
    I guess you won't know unless you keep up the effort.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]

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