Manchester Arena
Comments
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Yeah and I'm allowed to challenge conventional wisdom on certain subjects without being accused of having a massive axe to grind or suggesting alternative solutions to difficult problems after serious thought without it being a whim as you describe it. Have you seen how many pages the Brexit thread runs to? Now there are plenty of axes being ground there.meanredspider wrote:It is. I've discussed your idea and I don't agree. This IS the Internet isn't it? I THINK I'm allowed to do that (for now, at least)0 -
Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry wrote:Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.
+1 - in particular the likes of Branson and Co that keep being mentioned. It seems that it's far less to do with terrorists and far more to do with cannabis the way it comes across (to me at least).ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
rjsterry wrote:Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.
I have repeatedly suggested a proper enquiry to ascertain whether the apparent correlation is in fact causation. How else are we to determine this? As for me banging on about it, yes maybe I have a bit, just like you have on the Brexit thread which currently runs to 649 pages. It's a discussion forum, these things tend to get a bit sterile when everyone agrees.0 -
meanredspider wrote:rjsterry wrote:Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.
+1 - in particular the likes of Branson and Co that keep being mentioned. It seems that it's far less to do with terrorists and far more to do with cannabis the way it comes across (to me at least).
Branson is part of the billionaire backed Big Dope Lobby currently paving the way for legalisation. If he gets his way more people!e might have their brains fried smoking his product whilst he profits massively out of it. Still, he's a nice guy and all that so nothing to worry about.0 -
Do a study into how dope users are weak willed and easily manipulated.Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:Shortfall wrote:If cannabis is found to be a causative factor in this particularly horrific subset of crime, do you think we should make access to it easier than it already is?
Of course not. But that is truly one massive "if". You didn't respond to my point about countries where cannabis access is much easier. You'd be better served turning your attention to tobacco which already has a definite causal link to many millions of horrific deaths before trying to make a tenuous link between cannabis and terrorism.
There may all kinds of societal and demographic reasons that are responsible for the apparent absence of these murders in countries like Holland where cannabis is legal. A proper enquiry can look into these things. If we don't look we will never know though will we? As for tobacco, the tobacco industry spent decades minimising any correlation between their poison and smoking related illnesses. They still do it. I suppose they might have even said something similar to what you just have that "drinking alcohol is legal and is responsible for far more deaths than smoking gov so have a look at that first". It is possible of course to do both at the same time. What we do know for an absolute fact is that our already feeble laws on cannabis use and possession are effectively a dead letter and have been for many years. We also know that many of these jihadi style mass murders are perpetrated by people with a history of abusing the drug. Surely the responsible thing to do would be to rigorously examine this link before we let the billionaire backed Big Dope lobby gull us into legalisation without the full facts about the poison they wish to pedal being made available to us first?
There you go, sorted. They probably like convenience food too.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:rjsterry wrote:Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.
+1 - in particular the likes of Branson and Co that keep being mentioned. It seems that it's far less to do with terrorists and far more to do with cannabis the way it comes across (to me at least).
Branson is part of the billionaire backed Big Dope Lobby currently paving the way for legalisation. If he gets his way more people!e might have their brains fried smoking his product whilst he profits massively out of it. Still, he's a nice guy and all that so nothing to worry about.
I'm not personally a fan of cannabis and I can take or leave Branson so I'm trying to look at your terrorist argument objectively and, I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
That's fine. But If I've made a few people question the received wisdom on this subject then I'll take that.meanredspider wrote:Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:rjsterry wrote:Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.
+1 - in particular the likes of Branson and Co that keep being mentioned. It seems that it's far less to do with terrorists and far more to do with cannabis the way it comes across (to me at least).
Branson is part of the billionaire backed Big Dope Lobby currently paving the way for legalisation. If he gets his way more people!e might have their brains fried smoking his product whilst he profits massively out of it. Still, he's a nice guy and all that so nothing to worry about.
I'm not personally a fan of cannabis and I can take or leave Branson so I'm trying to look at your terrorist argument objectively and, I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it.0 -
PBlakeney wrote:
Do a study into how dope users are weak willed and easily manipulated.Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:Shortfall wrote:If cannabis is found to be a causative factor in this particularly horrific subset of crime, do you think we should make access to it easier than it already is?
Of course not. But that is truly one massive "if". You didn't respond to my point about countries where cannabis access is much easier. You'd be better served turning your attention to tobacco which already has a definite causal link to many millions of horrific deaths before trying to make a tenuous link between cannabis and terrorism.
There may all kinds of societal and demographic reasons that are responsible for the apparent absence of these murders in countries like Holland where cannabis is legal. A proper enquiry can look into these things. If we don't look we will never know though will we? As for tobacco, the tobacco industry spent decades minimising any correlation between their poison and smoking related illnesses. They still do it. I suppose they might have even said something similar to what you just have that "drinking alcohol is legal and is responsible for far more deaths than smoking gov so have a look at that first". It is possible of course to do both at the same time. What we do know for an absolute fact is that our already feeble laws on cannabis use and possession are effectively a dead letter and have been for many years. We also know that many of these jihadi style mass murders are perpetrated by people with a history of abusing the drug. Surely the responsible thing to do would be to rigorously examine this link before we let the billionaire backed Big Dope lobby gull us into legalisation without the full facts about the poison they wish to pedal being made available to us first?
There you go, sorted. They probably like convenience food too.
Not that I'm a fan of junk food either but the clue is that cannabis is a powerful mind altering substance that is closely correlated with mental illness, particularly psychosis. In any case, a proper study looking at all the clinical evidence can establish that. If you want to call for a similar enquiry linking Big Macs to mass murder knock yourself out.0 -
I think the thing is that there have been many (hundreds?) of studies into the effects of cannabis - I know the details of one for certain - and I'm sure they have as much understanding as there is to be had for now. I'll add that it doesn't seem to be a random group of dope heads that are blowing themselves up or attacking people with machetes or trucks - it's a very specific group of people broadly aligned to a "cause", "religion" and way of thinking. Where you lose me completely in your argument is that there doesn't seem to be another population of dope heads aligned to a different cause or religion or way of thinking doing something similar. If the Rastas were the world's most feared terrorist group, I'd be right there with you marching on Parliament. As it is, I think we'd be far better served focusing on other issues.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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My point is that weak willed will be easily drawn to cannabis. And munchies, and possibly terrorism. Not that cannabis makes the user weak willed. Chicken and egg debate.Shortfall wrote:PBlakeney wrote:
Do a study into how dope users are weak willed and easily manipulated.Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:Shortfall wrote:If cannabis is found to be a causative factor in this particularly horrific subset of crime, do you think we should make access to it easier than it already is?
Of course not. But that is truly one massive "if". You didn't respond to my point about countries where cannabis access is much easier. You'd be better served turning your attention to tobacco which already has a definite causal link to many millions of horrific deaths before trying to make a tenuous link between cannabis and terrorism.
There may all kinds of societal and demographic reasons that are responsible for the apparent absence of these murders in countries like Holland where cannabis is legal. A proper enquiry can look into these things. If we don't look we will never know though will we? As for tobacco, the tobacco industry spent decades minimising any correlation between their poison and smoking related illnesses. They still do it. I suppose they might have even said something similar to what you just have that "drinking alcohol is legal and is responsible for far more deaths than smoking gov so have a look at that first". It is possible of course to do both at the same time. What we do know for an absolute fact is that our already feeble laws on cannabis use and possession are effectively a dead letter and have been for many years. We also know that many of these jihadi style mass murders are perpetrated by people with a history of abusing the drug. Surely the responsible thing to do would be to rigorously examine this link before we let the billionaire backed Big Dope lobby gull us into legalisation without the full facts about the poison they wish to pedal being made available to us first?
There you go, sorted. They probably like convenience food too.
Not that I'm a fan of junk food either but the clue is that cannabis is a powerful mind altering substance that is closely correlated with mental illness, particularly psychosis. In any case, a proper study looking at all the clinical evidence can establish that. If you want to call for a similar enquiry linking Big Macs to mass murder knock yourself out.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Shortfall wrote:rjsterry wrote:Well you do keep bringing it up. With nothing but an apparent correlation based on a handful of selected names to back up your assertion.
I have repeatedly suggested a proper enquiry to ascertain whether the apparent correlation is in fact causation. How else are we to determine this? As for me banging on about it, yes maybe I have a bit, just like you have on the Brexit thread which currently runs to 649 pages. It's a discussion forum, these things tend to get a bit sterile when everyone agrees.
Nothing wrong with banging on per se, but I think you need to substantiate the claim of a correlation if you want people to look into it. So far we've got a dozen names from the last decade or so. I don't know what the estimate would be for active members* of terrorist movements, but I would guess it's at least 100 times that. What is the incidence of heavy cannabis use in that population? If you could link heavy cannabis use to even, say, 60% of those convicted of terrorist offences that would be a start.
*accepting that the likes of IS don't necessarily have members in the formal sense.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Shortfall wrote:
Not that I'm a fan of junk food either but the clue is that cannabis is a powerful mind altering substance that is closely correlated with mental illness, particularly psychosis. In any case, a proper study looking at all the clinical evidence can establish that. If you want to call for a similar enquiry linking Big Macs to mass murder knock yourself out.
You are barking up the wrong tree here.
How on earth would you ever have some sort of randomised ethical control for starters?
300 jihadists return from Syria in last 2 years and ONE yes ONE exclusion order used.... May says that they were ALL looked at on a case by case basis...... so they were all so traumatised by war and beheadings that they became peaceniks lol!0 -
meanredspider wrote:I think the thing is that there have been many (hundreds?) of studies into the effects of cannabis - I know the details of one for certain - and I'm sure they have as much understanding as there is to be had for now. I'll add that it doesn't seem to be a random group of dope heads that are blowing themselves up or attacking people with machetes or trucks - it's a very specific group of people broadly aligned to a "cause", "religion" and way of thinking. Where you lose me completely in your argument is that there doesn't seem to be another population of dope heads aligned to a different cause or religion or way of thinking doing something similar. If the Rastas were the world's most feared terrorist group, I'd be right there with you marching on Parliament. As it is, I think we'd be far better served focusing on other issues.
Examining the cannabis link doesn't prevent us looking at all the other possible causes.0 -
mamba80 wrote:Shortfall wrote:
Not that I'm a fan of junk food either but the clue is that cannabis is a powerful mind altering substance that is closely correlated with mental illness, particularly psychosis. In any case, a proper study looking at all the clinical evidence can establish that. If you want to call for a similar enquiry linking Big Macs to mass murder knock yourself out.
You are barking up the wrong tree here.
How on earth would you ever have some sort of randomised ethical control for starters?
300 jihadists return from Syria in last 2 years and ONE yes ONE exclusion order used.... May says that they were ALL looked at on a case by case basis...... so they were all so traumatised by war and beheadings that they became peaceniks lol!
Let me turn that around. There is a powerful well funded lobby who want to legalise cannabis and are engaging in the process in different countries around the world now. What ethical randomised control are they proposing to use to prove that it is safe to unleash this drug to a wider audience?0 -
Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:I think the thing is that there have been many (hundreds?) of studies into the effects of cannabis - I know the details of one for certain - and I'm sure they have as much understanding as there is to be had for now. I'll add that it doesn't seem to be a random group of dope heads that are blowing themselves up or attacking people with machetes or trucks - it's a very specific group of people broadly aligned to a "cause", "religion" and way of thinking. Where you lose me completely in your argument is that there doesn't seem to be another population of dope heads aligned to a different cause or religion or way of thinking doing something similar. If the Rastas were the world's most feared terrorist group, I'd be right there with you marching on Parliament. As it is, I think we'd be far better served focusing on other issues.
Examining the cannabis link doesn't prevent us looking at all the other possible causes.
But it does. There isn't a bottomless pit of resource.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
meanredspider wrote:Shortfall wrote:meanredspider wrote:I think the thing is that there have been many (hundreds?) of studies into the effects of cannabis - I know the details of one for certain - and I'm sure they have as much understanding as there is to be had for now. I'll add that it doesn't seem to be a random group of dope heads that are blowing themselves up or attacking people with machetes or trucks - it's a very specific group of people broadly aligned to a "cause", "religion" and way of thinking. Where you lose me completely in your argument is that there doesn't seem to be another population of dope heads aligned to a different cause or religion or way of thinking doing something similar. If the Rastas were the world's most feared terrorist group, I'd be right there with you marching on Parliament. As it is, I think we'd be far better served focusing on other issues.
Examining the cannabis link doesn't prevent us looking at all the other possible causes.
But it does. There isn't a bottomless pit of resource.
I accept that resources are finite, however it's a matter of priorities. There is no end of highly questionable gvernment spending even in these times of so called austerity.0 -
So there might be but there's also a massive queue of resource needs that are proven and desperate now.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
