Manchester Arena

rick_chasey

mamba80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So what am I assuming?

all of it obv! the numbers involved or not, their intent and that our security services are doing the best job possible, without questioning anything they do.

Come on. Read it again and try again.

Where do I actually say that?

mr_goo

I find all the extra armed policing and army on the streets very reassuring. However I fail to see how their presence will deter a suicide bomber from walking into a shopping centre, onto a crowded train or to mingle within a crowd at a concert or sporting event.
It's the FA Cup final on Sat. European Cup final following Sat and any number of big concerts over next couple of weeks. Small wonder that all the major trauma units have been put on alert. I'm very fearful.

Jez mon

Shortfall wrote:

I don't disagree that there may be other factors at play including some of the things you mention, in which case we should be carefully examining them and what if any role they play in damaging some people's minds and power of reason. Cannabis use appears to be an extremely common theme in this type of attacker however and we know it is strongly correlated with mental illness. We also know that laws on cannabis use and possession in our country are lax and barely enforced and we are at a point where powerful lobbies are urging governments towards legalisation. Perhaps we should more closely examine the link between cannabis use a and mass murder and random horrific attacks before we embark on legalisation?

We also know that there's plenty of evidence in favour of medicinal use of the drug.

If it was legalised and regulated there could be less of the super strong mind screwing stuff.

Ultimately every negative that cannabis has is seems much matched if not exceeded by alcohol. However if alcohol is your drug of choice you get the security of knowing what abv you're consuming.

Pross

Newport city centre is closed this evening to deal with a suspect car at the main shopping centre and suspect package on one of the bridges. I suspect similar is happening nationwide as people get jittery though as it would be an odd target and timing wise next week the area would give a far more high profile target.

bendertherobot

Pross wrote:

Newport city centre is closed this evening to deal with a suspect car at the main shopping centre and suspect package on one of the bridges. I suspect similar is happening nationwide as people get jittery though as it would be an odd target and timing wise next week the area would give a far more high profile target.

They seem to be taking it very seriously. So, either it's something, or some idiot who's parked their car there is going to be in some almighty trouble. Definitely unusual mind, given where it's parked.

ugo.santalucia

Jez mon wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I don't disagree that there may be other factors at play including some of the things you mention, in which case we should be carefully examining them and what if any role they play in damaging some people's minds and power of reason. Cannabis use appears to be an extremely common theme in this type of attacker however and we know it is strongly correlated with mental illness. We also know that laws on cannabis use and possession in our country are lax and barely enforced and we are at a point where powerful lobbies are urging governments towards legalisation. Perhaps we should more closely examine the link between cannabis use a and mass murder and random horrific attacks before we embark on legalisation?

We also know that there's plenty of evidence in favour of medicinal use of the drug.

If it was legalised and regulated there could be less of the super strong mind screwing stuff.

Ultimately every negative that cannabis has is seems much matched if not exceeded by alcohol. However if alcohol is your drug of choice you get the security of knowing what abv you're consuming.

I used to think that smoking was a big pleasure in my life. A few months after giving up, I realised I didn't miss it that much... if they did the same with alcohol (put unrealistic tax on it and run a massive smear campaign) we would probably all move to soft drink and alcohol free beer and not miss it as much as we think. I am pretty sure they would come out with pretty decent alcohol free wine too... I find alcohol free beer very decent... just need more choice on the shelves...

Alcohol free Black Sheep? Yes please!

Pross

bendertherobot wrote:

Pross wrote:

Newport city centre is closed this evening to deal with a suspect car at the main shopping centre and suspect package on one of the bridges. I suspect similar is happening nationwide as people get jittery though as it would be an odd target and timing wise next week the area would give a far more high profile target.

They seem to be taking it very seriously. So, either it's something, or some idiot who's parked their car there is going to be in some almighty trouble. Definitely unusual mind, given where it's parked.

Yep, hardly positioned to cause maximum damage. I guess it could be genuine and someone losing their nerve with all the raids and arrests but I suspect it will end up being something to do with low level criminal behaviour or some idiot who thought it was a good place to park!

shortfall

Jez mon wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I don't disagree that there may be other factors at play including some of the things you mention, in which case we should be carefully examining them and what if any role they play in damaging some people's minds and power of reason. Cannabis use appears to be an extremely common theme in this type of attacker however and we know it is strongly correlated with mental illness. We also know that laws on cannabis use and possession in our country are lax and barely enforced and we are at a point where powerful lobbies are urging governments towards legalisation. Perhaps we should more closely examine the link between cannabis use a and mass murder and random horrific attacks before we embark on legalisation?

We also know that there's plenty of evidence in favour of medicinal use of the drug.

If it was legalised and regulated there could be less of the super strong mind screwing stuff.

Ultimately every negative that cannabis has is seems much matched if not exceeded by alcohol. However if alcohol is your drug of choice you get the security of knowing what abv you're consuming.

Not true. A legal market for alcohol and tobacco hasn't prevented a lucrative black market for smugglers who often supply dangerous counterfeit alternatives. But that isn't my point. Somebody said earlier in the thread that these people weren't crazy and yet the common thread is that in all the examples I gave heavy cannabis use was present. Cannabis as we know is a powerful mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with mental illness, particular psychosis. Many people who indulge in it clearly suffer no or very mild side effects but when you look closely at these spree killings and mass murders it's amazing how many of the perpetrators have addled their brains with dope or other supposedly soft drugs such as anabolic steroids (Raul Moat and Anders Brevik spring to mind). Shouldn't we at least look at this in more detail to try and establish causation before we loosen out drug laws further or make this stuff legal?

shortfall

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I don't disagree that there may be other factors at play including some of the things you mention, in which case we should be carefully examining them and what if any role they play in damaging some people's minds and power of reason. Cannabis use appears to be an extremely common theme in this type of attacker however and we know it is strongly correlated with mental illness. We also know that laws on cannabis use and possession in our country are lax and barely enforced and we are at a point where powerful lobbies are urging governments towards legalisation. Perhaps we should more closely examine the link between cannabis use a and mass murder and random horrific attacks before we embark on legalisation?

We also know that there's plenty of evidence in favour of medicinal use of the drug.

If it was legalised and regulated there could be less of the super strong mind screwing stuff.

Ultimately every negative that cannabis has is seems much matched if not exceeded by alcohol. However if alcohol is your drug of choice you get the security of knowing what abv you're consuming.

I used to think that smoking was a big pleasure in my life. A few months after giving up, I realised I didn't miss it that much... if they did the same with alcohol (put unrealistic tax on it and run a massive smear campaign) we would probably all move to soft drink and alcohol free beer and not miss it as much as we think. I am pretty sure they would come out with pretty decent alcohol free wine too... I find alcohol free beer very decent... just need more choice on the shelves...

Alcohol free Black Sheep? Yes please!

Becks Blue ain't bad either.

rjsterry

Shortfall wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I don't disagree that there may be other factors at play including some of the things you mention, in which case we should be carefully examining them and what if any role they play in damaging some people's minds and power of reason. Cannabis use appears to be an extremely common theme in this type of attacker however and we know it is strongly correlated with mental illness. We also know that laws on cannabis use and possession in our country are lax and barely enforced and we are at a point where powerful lobbies are urging governments towards legalisation. Perhaps we should more closely examine the link between cannabis use a and mass murder and random horrific attacks before we embark on legalisation?

We also know that there's plenty of evidence in favour of medicinal use of the drug.

If it was legalised and regulated there could be less of the super strong mind screwing stuff.

Ultimately every negative that cannabis has is seems much matched if not exceeded by alcohol. However if alcohol is your drug of choice you get the security of knowing what abv you're consuming.

Not true. A legal market for alcohol and tobacco hasn't prevented a lucrative black market for smugglers who often supply dangerous counterfeit alternatives. But that isn't my point. Somebody said earlier in the thread that these people weren't crazy and yet the common thread is that in all the examples I gave heavy cannabis use was present. Cannabis as we know is a powerful mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with mental illness, particular psychosis. Many people who indulge in it clearly suffer no or very mild side effects but when you look closely at these spree killings and mass murders it's amazing how many of the perpetrators have addled their brains with dope or other supposedly soft drugs such as anabolic steroids (Raul Moat and Anders Brevik spring to mind). Shouldn't we at least look at this in more detail to try and establish causation before we loosen out drug laws further or make this stuff legal?

A common thread, not the common thread. Amd there is no evidence of a causal link. A correlation is doesn't mean very much at all. Substance abuse - whether that be alcohol, tobacco or other drugs illegal or legal - is more often a symptom of more deep seated problems than the cause.

shortfall

rjsterry wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I don't disagree that there may be other factors at play including some of the things you mention, in which case we should be carefully examining them and what if any role they play in damaging some people's minds and power of reason. Cannabis use appears to be an extremely common theme in this type of attacker however and we know it is strongly correlated with mental illness. We also know that laws on cannabis use and possession in our country are lax and barely enforced and we are at a point where powerful lobbies are urging governments towards legalisation. Perhaps we should more closely examine the link between cannabis use a and mass murder and random horrific attacks before we embark on legalisation?

We also know that there's plenty of evidence in favour of medicinal use of the drug.

If it was legalised and regulated there could be less of the super strong mind screwing stuff.

Ultimately every negative that cannabis has is seems much matched if not exceeded by alcohol. However if alcohol is your drug of choice you get the security of knowing what abv you're consuming.

Not true. A legal market for alcohol and tobacco hasn't prevented a lucrative black market for smugglers who often supply dangerous counterfeit alternatives. But that isn't my point. Somebody said earlier in the thread that these people weren't crazy and yet the common thread is that in all the examples I gave heavy cannabis use was present. Cannabis as we know is a powerful mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with mental illness, particular psychosis. Many people who indulge in it clearly suffer no or very mild side effects but when you look closely at these spree killings and mass murders it's amazing how many of the perpetrators have addled their brains with dope or other supposedly soft drugs such as anabolic steroids (Raul Moat and Anders Brevik spring to mind). Shouldn't we at least look at this in more detail to try and establish causation before we loosen out drug laws further or make this stuff legal?

A common thread, not the common thread. Amd there is no evidence of a causal link. A correlation is doesn't mean very much at all.

Yes we'll done Sherlock which is why I was at pains to point out earlier that other contributing factors could be at play and why I suggested that there is some sort of official enquiry to examine whether there is causation. Remember "Big Tobacco" used to deny the strong correlation between smoking and a host of deadly diseases such as lung cancer and emphysema and employed plenty of well paid doctors who acted as dupes to try and minimise any link? "Big Dope" interests such as George Soros and Richard Branson are currently down playing any harmful effects of cannabis and promoting the red herring of medicinal use in their attempts to push legalisation. I wonder why these billionaires are interested in pushing drugs? Could it perhaps be that they see an opportunity to make a load more money and to hell with the mental health of your kids?

rjsterry

As per my edited post above - if my kids are heavily using drugs, I've probably already missed some important mental health issues.

mamba80

Mr Goo wrote:

I find all the extra armed policing and army on the streets very reassuring. However I fail to see how their presence will deter a suicide bomber from walking into a shopping centre, onto a crowded train or to mingle within a crowd at a concert or sporting event.
It's the FA Cup final on Sat. European Cup final following Sat and any number of big concerts over next couple of weeks. Small wonder that all the major trauma units have been put on alert. I'm very fearful.

you should nt be, life goes on and if there was going to be a series of coordinated attacks, they d have happened within hours of the Manchester one, or so previous attacks in europe have shown.... first time for anything i suppose.

Just get on with your life and drive carefully, thats the number one risk to your self and family.

mamba80

Rick Chasey wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So what am I assuming?

all of it obv! the numbers involved or not, their intent and that our security services are doing the best job possible, without questioning anything they do.

Come on. Read it again and try again.

Where do I actually say that?

wtf? you had a right go at me for Q the sec services and for my so called assumptions, yet you are coming out with a load of figures yourself, without any evidence either.... assumptions!!!

back to facts.....May was told at the police fed conf in 2015 that cuts were endangering the public and intel gathering, since 2010 1300 AR officers cut and PCSO's cut to the bone, the very people who have their ear to the ground within communities.
the gov has tried to re instate these AR officers and failed.

she was home sec and now PM, yet is getting off scott free on her handing of Police cuts and as i ve said i m surprised you think this is ok,

dav1d1

mamba80 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I find all the extra armed policing and army on the streets very reassuring. However I fail to see how their presence will deter a suicide bomber from walking into a shopping centre, onto a crowded train or to mingle within a crowd at a concert or sporting event.
It's the FA Cup final on Sat. European Cup final following Sat and any number of big concerts over next couple of weeks. Small wonder that all the major trauma units have been put on alert. I'm very fearful.

you should nt be, life goes on and if there was going to be a series of coordinated attacks, they d have happened within hours of the Manchester one, or so previous attacks in europe have shown.... first time for anything i suppose.

Just get on with your life and drive carefully, thats the number one risk to your self and family.

You say "life' goes on" like it's just an Everyday occorence, like a late tube train etc, life doesn't go on for the 22 people killed, neither does it for the families either. No you shouldn't be scared to walk the streets of the country you live in. That's how these people win. That's what they want! Scared, worried, afriad. Terrorism won't win, will never win. But for the life's of the families it affects it does. An 8 year old girl going to watch her idol at a pop concert to never coming home and telling the stories of the night to her family members and friends.

bendertherobot

Katie Hopkins looking for a new job.............

nickice

mamba80 wrote:

Executing terrorists (or freedom fighters) rarely works, the Germans had terrible retribution against the french, Czechs etc etc and it did nothing to stop further attacks by resistance fighters.
the Colombians have spent billions fighting the FARC, inc executions and internment, same in SA, look at the retribution rained down on the Taliban, it has just made them stronger still, we are finding that out, just as the soviets did....talking is normally the way these things end.

SC.... as for the something should be done brigade etc etc following people who travel to Libya and Syria is perhaps where we should start using valuable resources?

Actually , the reprisals from the German army largely did work in France. They were so effective that the allies copied them (though usually didn't go as far as executions) when subject to guerilla attacks just after WW2. People forget that one of the main reasons the IRA came to the table is because the British military was on the brink of destroying it. Even in the Balkan wars, parties didn't come to the table if they thought they had more of an advantage militarily.

To play devil's advocate, the internment of Irish Republicans (by the way, internment of Germans and Italians in WW2 'worked' in that it didn't tend to have any long-term ill feeling) was is not analogous to the internment of ISIS supporters. Most Northern Irish Catholics shared the aims (though not the methods) of the IRA. The same is not true of most Muslims with ISIS . In fact, if I were a moderate Muslims I wouldn't be so against the internment of ISIS supporters (we are at war with ISIS basically) as I'd want these people out of the community.

mr_goo

mamba80 wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I find all the extra armed policing and army on the streets very reassuring. However I fail to see how their presence will deter a suicide bomber from walking into a shopping centre, onto a crowded train or to mingle within a crowd at a concert or sporting event.
It's the FA Cup final on Sat. European Cup final following Sat and any number of big concerts over next couple of weeks. Small wonder that all the major trauma units have been put on alert. I'm very fearful.

you should nt be, life goes on and if there was going to be a series of coordinated attacks, they d have happened within hours of the Manchester one, or so previous attacks in europe have shown.... first time for anything i suppose.

Just get on with your life and drive carefully, thats the number one risk to your self and family.

I should have clarified. I am fearful that over the next couple of weeks we see another despicable attack on innocent citizens.
I will carry on doing as i please.

rick_chasey

For context, this kind of sh!t, doesn't help. In the last 24 hours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40051640

US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's Mosul

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40037169

Syria war: Air strike near Raqqa 'kills 16 civilians'

Pointless comparing like for like, but if you already view Americans with some trepidation and they kill 100 civilians of your own group...

Lookyhere

Rick Chasey wrote:

For context, this kind of sh!t, doesn't help. In the last 24 hours: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40051640

US air strike on IS killed 105 civilians in Iraq's Mosul

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40037169

Syria war: Air strike near Raqqa 'kills 16 civilians'

Pointless comparing like for like, but if you already view Americans with some trepidation and they kill 100 civilians of your own group...

I listened to Jeremy Bowens account of an allied air strike on a bomb shelter during the Iraq war - 400 civilians killed, mainly women and children, it was dismissed by the UK and US governments who said first that it was a army HQ and then said it used to be one.
Bowen went on to say that he wondered how an Arab journalist would be greeted in the UK/US if we d suffered such an outrage.

Corbyn is absolutely right to raise our foreign policy under Blair and the Tories for making the UK less safe not more, it not a direct link but it appears to be just making matters far worse both for us and for the countries we bomb and invade.

nickice

Lookyhere wrote:

Corbyn is absolutely right to raise our foreign policy under Blair and the Tories for making the UK less safe not more, it not a direct link but it appears to be just making matters far worse both for us and for the countries we bomb and invade.

How many ISIS attacks in Europe have been carried out by non-EU citizens? ISIS have clearly stated that foreign policy is a secondary reason (which would explain why they've attacked European countries with very little involvement in the ME). They say that the primary reason is our failure to accept Islam. It's strange that nobody believes them.

Frank the tank

Given this outrage could possibly have been avoided why has Ben Wallace minister for security hasn't offered his resignation and the press have not called for it (I wonder why) He should man up and do the decent thing.

Whether the fact we're in a GE is relevant I don't know? But he has been on media as the security minister so his head should roll as the book stops with him.

Pross

Frank the tank wrote:

Given this outrage could possibly have been avoided why has Ben Wallace minister for security hasn't offered his resignation and the press have not called for it (I wonder why) He should man up and do the decent thing.

Whether the fact we're in a GE is relevant I don't know? But he has been on media as the security minister so his head should roll as the book stops with him.

Do we actually have Ministers when Parliament is dissolved?

mamba80

Pross wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Given this outrage could possibly have been avoided why has Ben Wallace minister for security hasn't offered his resignation and the press have not called for it (I wonder why) He should man up and do the decent thing.

Whether the fact we're in a GE is relevant I don't know? But he has been on media as the security minister so his head should roll as the book stops with him.

Do we actually have Ministers when Parliament is dissolved?

we ve a PM and i wish she d resign!
aside i do think someone should be held responsible (within Gov) for this outrage.

i had some hope for her (i believed her own BS) but she has proven to be another weak PM in a long line of v weak PM's.

yes i did mean in the aftermath, that is rather obv despite my slack use of language!

bendertherobot

Pross wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Given this outrage could possibly have been avoided why has Ben Wallace minister for security hasn't offered his resignation and the press have not called for it (I wonder why) He should man up and do the decent thing.

Whether the fact we're in a GE is relevant I don't know? But he has been on media as the security minister so his head should roll as the book stops with him.

Do we actually have Ministers when Parliament is dissolved?

Yes, Parliament is dissolved, the Government is not.

Frank the tank

bendertherobot wrote:

Pross wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Given this outrage could possibly have been avoided why has Ben Wallace minister for security hasn't offered his resignation and the press have not called for it (I wonder why) He should man up and do the decent thing.

Whether the fact we're in a GE is relevant I don't know? But he has been on media as the security minister so his head should roll as the book stops with him.

Do we actually have Ministers when Parliament is dissolved?

Yes, Parliament is dissolved, the Government is not.

He should go then.
This highlights part of the problem people have with politicians, Wallace should accept he is responsible for security and this was breached in a big way and he should have the decency to fall on his own sword. But all we ever hear platitudes and meelie mouthed comments.

meanredspider

Yeah - let's fire minsters and PMs every time the terrorists succeed - that won't encourage more attacks, will it...

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

Yeah - let's fire minsters and PMs every time the terrorists succeed - that won't encourage more attacks, will it...

i dont think terrorist care.

but perhaps the thought of losing their privileged positions might make them take our safety a little more seriously? they certainly dont skimp on their security do they and of course in recent years, they (politicians) have been only too happy to be associated with our security services successes.

this is a major breach, this guy was build bombs under our noses and travelling unhindered around the middle east, sure we cant stop all attacks, thats very clear but as i ve said before people who are known to be travelling to libya and syria and whose family have a history of extreme islamic views should have at the very least been watched, i mean if he was deemed low risk, what the xxxx are the people doing who actually are believed to be a danger to us????

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yeah - let's fire minsters and PMs every time the terrorists succeed - that won't encourage more attacks, will it...

i dont think terrorist care.

That's where your thinking leads you to the wrong conclusions. Of course they care. Train an idiot to blow up some children and change the UK PM? That's a terrorst's wet dream.

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yeah - let's fire minsters and PMs every time the terrorists succeed - that won't encourage more attacks, will it...

i dont think terrorist care.

That's where your thinking leads you to the wrong conclusions. Of course they care. Train an idiot to blow up some children and change the UK PM? That's a terrorst's wet dream.

what Politicians care about is not being associated in a negative way, with these terrible events - the terrorists dont give a 4x about who resigns.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-m ... ack-2017-5

May did not take heed of these warnings on Police cuts.... who knows what might have happened if she had, we just dont know, however we do know what did happen and frank called for the security minister to go, that would be a start in returning accountability to Government.