Manchester Arena

meanredspider

What do you think terrorists are trying to do....?

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

What do you think terrorists are trying to do....?

lol1 how can that be answered in a few words on here? but maybe putting soldiers on the streets, cancelling events is doing exactly what the terrorist want, sowing fear and apprehension.

Perhaps go back to Franks original point, why should anyone who has messed up still be in their job

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

What do you think terrorists are trying to do....?

lol1 how can that be answered in a few words on here? but maybe putting soldiers on the streets, cancelling events is doing exactly what the terrorist want, sowing fear and apprehension.

Perhaps go back to Franks original point, why should anyone who has messed up still be in their job

I'll help you out: they're looking to influence foreign (or, for separatists, domestic) policy.

As for "messing up", it's never that simple. To paraphrase the IRA (what was their aim? Oh yes, foreign/domestic policy) "They need to be lucky all the time. We only need to be lucky once". That we've had nothing like the number of successful attacks that the French have had shows that we have something right.

slowmart

Frank the tank wrote:

Given this outrage could possibly have been avoided why has Ben Wallace minister for security hasn't offered his resignation and the press have not called for it (I wonder why) He should man up and do the decent thing.

Whether the fact we're in a GE is relevant I don't know? But he has been on media as the security minister so his head should roll as the book stops with him.

Are you for real? Armchair critic wearing retrospective glasses.

We have laws, checks and balances to protect civil liberties and I don't know how you can prevent someone with bad intentions attacking a soft target such as a pop concert.

Tell us Frank, enlighten us as to what you would have done to prevent the attack?

At the same time can you fuck off to ISIS controlled territory and protest about their treatment of women, gays, and Muslims who ISIS find offensive. I'd be interested in hearing your feedback.

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

What do you think terrorists are trying to do....?

lol1 how can that be answered in a few words on here? but maybe putting soldiers on the streets, cancelling events is doing exactly what the terrorist want, sowing fear and apprehension.

Perhaps go back to Franks original point, why should anyone who has messed up still be in their job

I'll help you out: they're looking to influence foreign (or, for separatists, domestic) policy.

As for "messing up", it's never that simple. To paraphrase the IRA (what was their aim? Oh yes, foreign/domestic policy) "They need to be lucky all the time. We only need to be lucky once". That we've had nothing like the number of successful attacks that the French have had shows that we have something right.

thank you but you are wrong with regard to ISil

the IRA had clear political objectives, IS do not, one could take the view they IS want to "Islamify" the west, certainly an extreme interpretation of the Koran would say so.
regardless, We dont really know what they want, who speaks for them? the attacks both in europe and UK seem to be inspired rather than following some predetermined ideology.

No, i m afraid thats just arrogance, we are an island, getting weapons into the UK is far harder. i dont believe our security forces are in someway superior to Frances - who seemed to know where this guy had been travelling and ours did not..

whoever wins the GE, the UK public will never support further foreign adventures, we cant afford it and our military is stretched to the limit, so in one sense, if you are correct regarding foreign policy, the we ve done IS 's job for them.

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

What do you think terrorists are trying to do....?

lol1 how can that be answered in a few words on here? but maybe putting soldiers on the streets, cancelling events is doing exactly what the terrorist want, sowing fear and apprehension.

Perhaps go back to Franks original point, why should anyone who has messed up still be in their job

I'll help you out: they're looking to influence foreign (or, for separatists, domestic) policy.

As for "messing up", it's never that simple. To paraphrase the IRA (what was their aim? Oh yes, foreign/domestic policy) "They need to be lucky all the time. We only need to be lucky once". That we've had nothing like the number of successful attacks that the French have had shows that we have something right.

thank you but you are wrong with regard to ISil

the IRA had clear political objectives, IS do not, one could take the view they IS want to "Islamify" the west, certainly an extreme interpretation of the Koran would say so.
regardless, We dont really know what they want, who speaks for them? the attacks both in europe and UK seem to be inspired rather than following some predetermined ideology.

No, i m afraid thats just arrogance, we are an island, getting weapons into the UK is far harder. i dont believe our security forces are in someway superior to Frances - who seemed to know where this guy had been travelling and ours did not..

whoever wins the GE, the UK public will never support further foreign adventures, we cant afford it and our military is stretched to the limit, so in one sense, if you are correct regarding foreign policy, the we ve done IS 's job for them.

Well, you got there in the end

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

What do you think terrorists are trying to do....?

lol1 how can that be answered in a few words on here? but maybe putting soldiers on the streets, cancelling events is doing exactly what the terrorist want, sowing fear and apprehension.

Perhaps go back to Franks original point, why should anyone who has messed up still be in their job

I'll help you out: they're looking to influence foreign (or, for separatists, domestic) policy.

As for "messing up", it's never that simple. To paraphrase the IRA (what was their aim? Oh yes, foreign/domestic policy) "They need to be lucky all the time. We only need to be lucky once". That we've had nothing like the number of successful attacks that the French have had shows that we have something right.

thank you but you are wrong with regard to ISil

the IRA had clear political objectives, IS do not, one could take the view they IS want to "Islamify" the west, certainly an extreme interpretation of the Koran would say so.
regardless, We dont really know what they want, who speaks for them? the attacks both in europe and UK seem to be inspired rather than following some predetermined ideology.

No, i m afraid thats just arrogance, we are an island, getting weapons into the UK is far harder. i dont believe our security forces are in someway superior to Frances - who seemed to know where this guy had been travelling and ours did not..

whoever wins the GE, the UK public will never support further foreign adventures, we cant afford it and our military is stretched to the limit, so in one sense, if you are correct regarding foreign policy, the we ve done IS 's job for them.

Well, you got there in the end

i think we both did key words being IF you are correct.

mr_goo

I'm not convinced that UK or Western foreign policy is now relevant in these terrorist attacks. Its quite probable that they are being inspired to take verses of the Qoran at their most literal extremes. I can't help but wonder whether this loser who attacked in Manchester was making a statement against the freedom that young girls and women enjoy in the west.... music, dancing, uncovered in their attire etc etc. It does go against the teachings that the terrorist may have been exposed to and been instructed to act upon.

shortfall

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not convinced that UK or Western foreign policy is now relevant in these terrorist attacks. Its quite probable that they are being inspired to take verses of the Qoran at their most literal extremes. I can't help but wonder whether this loser who attacked in Manchester was making a statement against the freedom that young girls and women enjoy in the west.... music, dancing, uncovered in their attire etc etc. It does go against the teachings that the terrorist may have been exposed to and been instructed to act upon.

This particular Jihadi was reportedly a heavy user of cannabis. I'm not a scholar of these things but it seems inconsistent with suggestions that he disapproves of Western freedoms. Perhaps he was just mad?

meanredspider

Shortfall wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not convinced that UK or Western foreign policy is now relevant in these terrorist attacks. Its quite probable that they are being inspired to take verses of the Qoran at their most literal extremes. I can't help but wonder whether this loser who attacked in Manchester was making a statement against the freedom that young girls and women enjoy in the west.... music, dancing, uncovered in their attire etc etc. It does go against the teachings that the terrorist may have been exposed to and been instructed to act upon.

This particular Jihadi was reportedly a heavy user of cannabis. I'm not a scholar of these things but it seems inconsistent with suggestions that he disapproves of Western freedoms. Perhaps he was just mad?

He's just the "cannon fodder" of the evil people that preach this nonsense. Let's face it, you've got to be some special type of head job to strap on a bomb and blow yourself and a load of little girls up.

mr_goo

meanredspider wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

I'm not convinced that UK or Western foreign policy is now relevant in these terrorist attacks. Its quite probable that they are being inspired to take verses of the Qoran at their most literal extremes. I can't help but wonder whether this loser who attacked in Manchester was making a statement against the freedom that young girls and women enjoy in the west.... music, dancing, uncovered in their attire etc etc. It does go against the teachings that the terrorist may have been exposed to and been instructed to act upon.

This particular Jihadi was reportedly a heavy user of cannabis. I'm not a scholar of these things but it seems inconsistent with suggestions that he disapproves of Western freedoms. Perhaps he was just mad?

He's just the "cannon fodder" of the evil people that preach this nonsense. Let's face it, you've got to be some special type of head job to strap on a bomb and blow yourself and a load of little girls up.

Totally agree. Ergo these atrocities now have little to do with politics and foreign policy.

nickice

meanredspider wrote:

He's just the "cannon fodder" of the evil people that preach this nonsense. Let's face it, you've got to be some special type of head job to strap on a bomb and blow yourself and a load of little girls up.

Adam Deen, a former Islamic extremist, was on TV and he said he completely understood the rationale behind it. The worst thing we could do would be to collectively dismiss these attackers as crazy or psychopaths. He thought he was doing God's work and that's what's particularly worrying about it.

nickice

Shortfall wrote:

This particular Jihadi was reportedly a heavy user of cannabis. I'm not a scholar of these things but it seems inconsistent with suggestions that he disapproves of Western freedoms. Perhaps he was just mad?

People pick and choose all the time with religion. We never said Paedophile priests weren't Catholics because they were abusing children.

shortfall

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

This particular Jihadi was reportedly a heavy user of cannabis. I'm not a scholar of these things but it seems inconsistent with suggestions that he disapproves of Western freedoms. Perhaps he was just mad?

People pick and choose all the time with religion. We never said Paedophile priests weren't Catholics because they were abusing children.

If we want to try an prevent these kind of atrocities in the future then we need to thoroughly examine the motives and state of mind of the killers. Many of these recent outrages have been blamed on the teachings of radical Islam and that the perpetrators somehow hate our way of life. Well this might be true I don't know, but what we do know is that a very common theme amongst these people is that they were drop outs, engaged in low level crime, and heavy users of cannabis, in other words not the sort of lifestyle choices consistent with a strict follower of religious faith. I think we need to explore any links to try and discover if there is any causation between cannabis abuse and psychosis that warps the brains of otherwise petty criminals and makes them susceptible to extremism and twisted ideologies and in some cases into violent mass killers.

nickice

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

If we want to try an prevent these kind of atrocities in the future then we need to thoroughly examine the motives and state of mind of the killers. Many of these recent outrages have been blamed on the teachings of radical Islam and that the perpetrators somehow hate our way of life. Well this might be true I don't know, but what we do know is that a very common theme amongst these people is that they were drop outs, engaged in low level crime, and heavy users of cannabis, in other words not the sort of lifestyle choices consistent with a strict follower of religious faith. I think we need to explore any links to try and discover if there is any causation between cannabis abuse and psychosis that warps the brains of otherwise petty criminals and makes them susceptible to extremism and twisted ideologies and in some cases into violent mass killers.

If you look at any religion (even extremist ideologies) it tends to be all sorts who join. Certainly not all jihadists have come from disadvantaged backgrounds or taken drugs. Many of them are highly educated with no subtance misuse or criminal background. Whether some people are pushed into ideologies like this because they feel isolated or whatever is besides the point as we're never going to live in a World where we can remove these things. If some of these young men (it usually is men) had found Christianity (or any other religion), their lives may have been completely different because ideas influence behaviour. When the Nazis were mass-murdering Jews, many of the people taking part had been perfectly normal before (and were afterwards). Ideologies can make ordinary people do evil things and they don't even realise it's evil.

shortfall

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

If we want to try an prevent these kind of atrocities in the future then we need to thoroughly examine the motives and state of mind of the killers. Many of these recent outrages have been blamed on the teachings of radical Islam and that the perpetrators somehow hate our way of life. Well this might be true I don't know, but what we do know is that a very common theme amongst these people is that they were drop outs, engaged in low level crime, and heavy users of cannabis, in other words not the sort of lifestyle choices consistent with a strict follower of religious faith. I think we need to explore any links to try and discover if there is any causation between cannabis abuse and psychosis that warps the brains of otherwise petty criminals and makes them susceptible to extremism and twisted ideologies and in some cases into violent mass killers.

If you look at any religion (even extremist ideologies) it tends to be all sorts who join. Certainly not all jihadists have come from disadvantaged backgrounds or taken drugs. Many of them are highly educated with no subtance misuse or criminal background. Whether some people are pushed into ideologies like this because they feel isolated or whatever is besides the point as we're never going to live in a World where we can remove these things. If some of these young men (it usually is men) had found Christianity (or any other religion), their lives may have been completely different because ideas influence behaviour. When the Nazis were mass-murdering Jews, many of the people taking part had been perfectly normal before (and were afterwards). Ideologies can make ordinary people do evil things and they don't even realise it's evil.

I don't disagree. However have another look at this:

The Manchester bomber
Richard Reid the shoe bomber
Jihadi John
Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale the killers of Lee Rigby
Muhadyn More the Leytonstone Tube knifeman
Said Kouachi Charlie Hebdo killer
Tunis beach killer Seifeddine Rezgui
Belgian train terrorist Ayoub El-Khazzani
Khalid Masood, who carried out the Westminster attack in March
ringleader of the 7/7 London bombings, Mohammad Sidique Khan

All heavy cannabis users. There are other examples I could cite. I repeat, this doesn't mean that cannabis is the "only" factor, it doesn't mean that everyone who uses cannabis will become a mass killer, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't examine every other avenue. However when an illicit mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with psychosis and mental illness has found to have been abused by so many of these indiscriminate and savage mass killers, it makes you wonder why it's the only thing the authorities seem to be ignoring.

meanredspider

Assassin: mid 16th century: from French, or from medieval Latin assassinus, from Arabic ḥašīšī ‘hashish-eater’

nickice

Shortfall wrote:

All heavy cannabis users. There are other examples I could cite. I repeat, this doesn't mean that cannabis is the "only" factor, it doesn't mean that everyone who uses cannabis will become a mass killer, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't examine every other avenue. However when an illicit mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with psychosis and mental illness has found to have been abused by so many of these indiscriminate and savage mass killers, it makes you wonder why it's the only thing the authorities seem to be ignoring.

Maybe it does cause some people to be violent but there are so many global jihadi attacks that I think it would be very difficult to show anything other than an incidental connection. You're also assumming that these guys were in a state of psychosis which I'd argue they weren't. When you believe what they believe, their actions are completely rationale. You don't need to be mentally ill to carry out attacks just as you don't need to be mentally ill to believe in many religions (let's face it, none of them stand up to basic scrutiny). It'd be more interesting to research why some people seem to need religion as others don't.

mr_goo

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

If we want to try an prevent these kind of atrocities in the future then we need to thoroughly examine the motives and state of mind of the killers. Many of these recent outrages have been blamed on the teachings of radical Islam and that the perpetrators somehow hate our way of life. Well this might be true I don't know, but what we do know is that a very common theme amongst these people is that they were drop outs, engaged in low level crime, and heavy users of cannabis, in other words not the sort of lifestyle choices consistent with a strict follower of religious faith. I think we need to explore any links to try and discover if there is any causation between cannabis abuse and psychosis that warps the brains of otherwise petty criminals and makes them susceptible to extremism and twisted ideologies and in some cases into violent mass killers.

If you look at any religion (even extremist ideologies) it tends to be all sorts who join. Certainly not all jihadists have come from disadvantaged backgrounds or taken drugs. Many of them are highly educated with no subtance misuse or criminal background. Whether some people are pushed into ideologies like this because they feel isolated or whatever is besides the point as we're never going to live in a World where we can remove these things. If some of these young men (it usually is men) had found Christianity (or any other religion), their lives may have been completely different because ideas influence behaviour. When the Nazis were mass-murdering Jews, many of the people taking part had been perfectly normal before (and were afterwards). Ideologies can make ordinary people do evil things and they don't even realise it's evil.

I don't disagree. However have another look at this:

The Manchester bomber
Richard Reid the shoe bomber
Jihadi John
Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale the killers of Lee Rigby
Muhadyn More the Leytonstone Tube knifeman
Said Kouachi Charlie Hebdo killer
Tunis beach killer Seifeddine Rezgui
Belgian train terrorist Ayoub El-Khazzani
Khalid Masood, who carried out the Westminster attack in March
ringleader of the 7/7 London bombings, Mohammad Sidique Khan

All heavy cannabis users. There are other examples I could cite. I repeat, this doesn't mean that cannabis is the "only" factor, it doesn't mean that everyone who uses cannabis will become a mass killer, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't examine every other avenue. However when an illicit mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with psychosis and mental illness has found to have been abused by so many of these indiscriminate and savage mass killers, it makes you wonder why it's the only thing the authorities seem to be ignoring.

What about the terrorists that flew planes into the world trade centre. Al-Qaeda. Very clever men, learnt to fly airliners . Different terror group but same ideology.....hate the West and all it stands for.

shortfall

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

All heavy cannabis users. There are other examples I could cite. I repeat, this doesn't mean that cannabis is the "only" factor, it doesn't mean that everyone who uses cannabis will become a mass killer, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't examine every other avenue. However when an illicit mind altering drug that is strongly correlated with psychosis and mental illness has found to have been abused by so many of these indiscriminate and savage mass killers, it makes you wonder why it's the only thing the authorities seem to be ignoring.

Maybe it does cause some people to be violent but there are so many global jihadi attacks that I think it would be very difficult to show anything other than an incidental connection. You're also assumming that these guys were in a state of psychosis which I'd argue they weren't. When you believe what they believe, their actions are completely rationale. You don't need to be mentally ill to carry out attacks just as you don't need to be mentally ill to believe in many religions (let's face it, none of them stand up to basic scrutiny). It'd be more interesting to research why some people seem to need religion as others don't.

Why doesn't anyone in authority want to examine the astonishing correlation between so many of these horrendous mass killings and the abuse of mind altering drugs in the perpetrators? It may be that after closer examination by a full and far reaching enquiry that no causation is proven, in which case we can discount it and look at other possible causes and motivations. But if we don't even look? The next time one of these horrendous crimes takes place, pay close attention to the press reports in the days and weeks following when all the speculation has died down. Once you start paying attention you'll be amazed how frequently the killers are found to have abused cannabis or other drugs.

shortfall

Mr Goo wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

g.

What about the terrorists that flew planes into the world trade centre. Al-Qaeda. Very clever men, learnt to fly airliners . Different terror group but same ideology.....hate the West and all it stands for.

What about them? Im not suggesting that "ALL" terrorists are potheads. Has anyone checked their background for the abuse of cannabis? For all I know they never touched the stuff, but that isn't my point. Radicalisation is clearly a factor in many such crimes. We do know howeved that in many of the recent mass murders in our own country by so called Jihadis that they were heavy cannabis users. What made them open to radicalisationand why? Was it the abuse of mind altering drugs strongly correlated with mental illness? Surely that's worthy of further investigation is all I'm saying.

nickice

There's probably lots of common factors but that doesn't mean they are a cause.

shortfall

nickice wrote:

There's probably lots of common factors but that doesn't mean they are a cause.

I absolutely agree. However if we don't even look at the link between cannabis and many of the recent horrific terrorist attacks then how will we ever know? Is anyone in authority looking at this? Is there an enquiry going on? Is there a royal commission? I don't see one. All I seem to see and hear are big dope billionaires like Richard Branson and his dupes in the media being given a free rein to extol the supposed benefits of legalisation and decriminalisation almost unchallenged in the mainstream media.

meanredspider

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

There's probably lots of common factors but that doesn't mean they are a cause.

I absolutely agree. However if we don't even look at the link between cannabis and many of the recent horrific terrorist attacks then how will we ever know? Is anyone in authority looking at this? Is there an enquiry going on? Is there a royal commission? I don't see one. All I seem to see and hear are big dope billionaires like Richard Branson and his dupes in the media being given a free rein to extol the supposed benefits of legalisation and decriminalisation almost unchallenged in the mainstream media.

What would you propose they do if, somehow, they did find a link - make cannabis illegal? And, in countries where cannabis use is legalised (e.g. NL) do you see that they have a disproportionate number of terrorists? I suspect you'll find a lot more concrete causal links than this one.

shortfall

meanredspider wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

nickice wrote:

There's probably lots of common factors but that doesn't mean they are a cause.

I absolutely agree. However if we don't even look at the link between cannabis and many of the recent horrific terrorist attacks then how will we ever know? Is anyone in authority looking at this? Is there an enquiry going on? Is there a royal commission? I don't see one. All I seem to see and hear are big dope billionaires like Richard Branson and his dupes in the media being given a free rein to extol the supposed benefits of legalisation and decriminalisation almost unchallenged in the mainstream media.

What would you propose they do if, somehow, they did find a link - make cannabis illegal? And, in countries where cannabis use is legalised (e.g. NL) do you see that they have a disproportionate number of terrorists? I suspect you'll find a lot more concrete causal links than this one.

If a link was established then perhaps Big Dope billionaires like Branson and Soros (who stand to profit hugely from legalisation) might start facing some tougher questioning in the mainstream media outlets and the country could have an informed debate on the subject. Let me turn the question around. If cannabis is found to be a causative factor in this particularly horrific subset of crime, do you think we should make access to it easier than it already is?

meanredspider

Shortfall wrote:

If cannabis is found to be a causative factor in this particularly horrific subset of crime, do you think we should make access to it easier than it already is?

Of course not. But that is truly one massive "if". You didn't respond to my point about countries where cannabis access is much easier. You'd be better served turning your attention to tobacco which already has a definite causal link to many millions of horrific deaths before trying to make a tenuous link between cannabis and terrorism.

shortfall

meanredspider wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

If cannabis is found to be a causative factor in this particularly horrific subset of crime, do you think we should make access to it easier than it already is?

Of course not. But that is truly one massive "if". You didn't respond to my point about countries where cannabis access is much easier. You'd be better served turning your attention to tobacco which already has a definite causal link to many millions of horrific deaths before trying to make a tenuous link between cannabis and terrorism.

There may all kinds of societal and demographic reasons that are responsible for the apparent absence of these murders in countries like Holland where cannabis is legal. A proper enquiry can look into these things. If we don't look we will never know though will we? As for tobacco, the tobacco industry spent decades minimising any correlation between their poison and smoking related illnesses. They still do it. I suppose they might have even said something similar to what you just have that "drinking alcohol is legal and is responsible for far more deaths than smoking gov so have a look at that first". It is possible of course to do both at the same time. What we do know for an absolute fact is that our already feeble laws on cannabis use and possession are effectively a dead letter and have been for many years. We also know that many of these jihadi style mass murders are perpetrated by people with a history of abusing the drug. Surely the responsible thing to do would be to rigorously examine this link before we let the billionaire backed Big Dope lobby gull us into legalisation without the full facts about the poison they wish to pedal being made available to us first?

meanredspider

I get that you have a massive axe to grind on this topic but you've joined a load of dots that, whilst all of us see them, don't think they need joining. And, no, we can't afford to start opening enquiries on every whim someone might dream up that they think needs examining. We cannot afford to fix things we already know for certain need addressing.

shortfall

meanredspider wrote:

I get that you have a massive axe to grind on this topic but you've joined a load of dots that, whilst all of us see them, don't think they need joining. And, no, we can't afford to start opening enquiries on every whim someone might dream up that they think needs examining. We cannot afford to fix things we already know for certain need addressing.

Sorry, I thought it was a section of the forum reserved for discussion other than bikes. My mistake.

meanredspider

It is. I've discussed your idea and I don't agree. This IS the Internet isn't it? I THINK I'm allowed to do that (for now, at least)