Gear ratio advice required.
Comments
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Did a hilly 100km 'race' on Sunday, peloton of 40 all going for it in the last 40km, lumpy but generally downhill, with 2 to 3km stretches of 1 to 3%. Good tailwind too, meant speeds here of 50 - 55km/h with an average over those 40km of over 40km/h. (Total average was 36km/h).
I used the 50-11 a LOT! Was in it on many different occasions, and appreciated the chance to keep a high speed without too high a cadence, as there was plenty of effort (and high cadence) required on the various short uphill lumps.
Had I been on a 50-12 I would have sorely missed the 11.
And all this some 1000km away from the Alps....(Brittany).0 -
Huh?First Aspect wrote:.....
Its not just about the longest gear, its about the usability of the others. There was an article on VN recently explaining that pro teams now use a wider range cassette on TT bikes. Not because of a hilly course, but to enable the rider to stay in the big ring (allegedly a W or two more efficient) for longer on climbs.
Having an 11t with a 50 is, for me, an occasionally used gear. A 34x12-14 is more common on lumpy terrain. If I have a 12-25 cassette, I can't use those gears (or, at least the 34x12) without chain rub on the big ring. So its kind of the slow amateur equivalent of why the pro teams do it.
Okay, perhaps I shouldn't cross the chain that far anyway, but I do. So there.
I don't see the parallel with "why the pro teams do it". It seems to me you're doing the exact opposite, i.e. staying on the small chainring when you should be on the big one. Why use 34/12 or 34/13 when 50/17 to 50/19 will do the same job but better? I know you're trying to pre-empt this comment by saying that perhaps you shouldn't cross chain but you do, however that comment and the fact you started off saying the big ring was more efficient undermines your entire point. So what then is your point?
It's kind of ridiculous to say gears should be chosen for usability and then say that you choose to mis-use them regardless.0 -
First Aspect wrote:There was an article on VN recently explaining that pro teams now use a wider range cassette on TT bikes. Not because of a hilly course, but to enable the rider to stay in the big ring (allegedly a W or two more efficient) for longer on climbs.
That thinking has been around for years - less friction and better chainline with bigger cogs. The likes of Tony Martin have been using wide range cassettes with a single crankset up front, but I think the reason for it has much more to do with the fact that with 11 speed, the jumps between sprockets are small enough.0 -
All I am saying is that there is a reason for having an 11t, other than having a longer gear. I.e. the position of other gears you might like to use changes, said changes potentially being helpful.Simon Masterson wrote:First Aspect wrote:There was an article on VN recently explaining that pro teams now use a wider range cassette on TT bikes. Not because of a hilly course, but to enable the rider to stay in the big ring (allegedly a W or two more efficient) for longer on climbs.
That thinking has been around for years - less friction and better chainline with bigger cogs. The likes of Tony Martin have been using wide range cassettes with a single crankset up front, but I think the reason for it has much more to do with the fact that with 11 speed, the jumps between sprockets are small enough.
I don't want to get into gear ratio 101 here. Basically, sometimes I can't be parsed to change into and out of the big ring so shock horror I stay in the small ring and use the 13t.0 -
Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
But the fact is the most frequently used gears are mid sprocket so shorter gaps mean better gear options with less changes in cadence.
In a race I typically use two or three gears for non lumpy and prob 4 or 5 for lumpy. I guess if someone had a monitor to measure use of gears over a year it would be 1% or less for a 11, 80% mid sprocket and 19% 17tooth and bigger
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I guess if someone had a monitor to measure use of gears over a year it would be 1% or less for a 11, 80% mid sprocket and 19% 17tooth and bigger
Did you just make that bullcyhte up?I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
While I too am inclined to the 11 is expendable in favour of a tight mid range, I think you're going a little too far. If it's available I certainly use the 50x11 reasonably frequently on downwind and/or downhill sections and for sprints. Less frequently than the mid range but still enough to be worth considering. I'd miss it, I just think it's a sacrifice that's worthwhile for a nice tight cassette especially if your on 9 speed or 10 speed. I'm fairly happily using an 11-28 cassette on my 11 speed bike whereas I gave up the 11 sprocket on my previous 9 speed bike to keep the gaps reasonable.Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
But the fact is the most frequently used gears are mid sprocket so shorter gaps mean better gear options with less changes in cadence.
In a race I typically use two or three gears for non lumpy and prob 4 or 5 for lumpy. I guess if someone had a monitor to measure use of gears over a year it would be 1% or less for a 11, 80% mid sprocket and 19% 17tooth and bigger
@Sloppy
Yeah, he made it up in so far as he stated it's a guess!
That's fair enough. But it's going to vary pretty dramatically from one person to another and flat terrain to hilly stuff.0 -
Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
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Yes it will vary between people and terrain for sure.
While I too am inclined to the 11 is expendable in favour of a tight mid range, I think you're going a little too far. If it's available I certainly use the 50x11 reasonably frequently on downwind and/or downhill sections and for sprints. Less frequently than the mid range but still enough to be worth considering. I'd miss it, I just think it's a sacrifice that's worthwhile for a nice tight cassette especially if your on 9 speed or 10 speed. I'm fairly happily using an 11-28 cassette on my 11 speed bike whereas I gave up the 11 sprocket on my previous 9 speed bike to keep the gaps reasonable.Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
But the fact is the most frequently used gears are mid sprocket so shorter gaps mean better gear options with less changes in cadence.
In a race I typically use two or three gears for non lumpy and prob 4 or 5 for lumpy. I guess if someone had a monitor to measure use of gears over a year it would be 1% or less for a 11, 80% mid sprocket and 19% 17tooth and bigger
@Sloppy
Yeah, he made it up in so far as he stated it's a guess!
That's fair enough. But it's going to vary pretty dramatically from one person to another and flat terrain to hilly stuff.
For average Joe Bloggs who lives in a flat area 13 to 23 is fine, for average guy in hilly area possibly 12 27.
Personally for racing I use 12 21 and for foreign sportives have spare wheels 12 25, winter bikes 13 23 and 13 27. As I said my highest speeds have been freewheeling not pedalling and in races generally freewheel down hills but these days races are mostly crits and not like years ago when it was common fo 50 to 80 mile road races with climbs not short loops with humps lol .
By the way, the guess is based on my "rough" usage and that of many other riders I have ridden or raced with. Happy to be proven wrong if someone can show me data indicating they rode a 50 x 11 for more than a few miles in a ride at av speed of 28.5mph
In fact the highest av speed I ever did was years ago in a crit, which was over 28.5mph and I was on a 42/52 with a then new 6 block 13 to 21 which was a typical block then. I would die riding that now ;-) 0 -
Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
If the hill's steep, you should be able to get to 45mph without pedalling at all, but 110rpm or less isn't exactly 'push[ing] hard downhill', not unless it's a really long descent the like of which we don't have in Britain.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19622883#p19622883]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
If the hill's steep, you should be able to get to 45mph without pedalling at all, but 110rpm or less isn't exactly 'push[ing] hard downhill', not unless it's a really long descent the like of which we don't have in Britain.
And if I want to get to 55mph I want to have a gear that will enable me to do that.
I'm not sure why you are adamant that there are no long descents in Britain, living between the N.Yorks Moors and Dales I can think of plenty descents that stretch for several miles.
I wish my climbing was such that I could run an 11-23t block, unfortunately its not so I have to accept the element of compromise.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19622883#p19622883]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
If the hill's steep, you should be able to get to 45mph without pedalling at all, but 110rpm or less isn't exactly 'push[ing] hard downhill', not unless it's a really long descent the like of which we don't have in Britain.
And if I want to get to 55mph I want to have a gear that will enable me to do that.
I'm not sure why you are adamant that there are no long descents in Britain, living between the N.Yorks Moors and Dales I can think of plenty descents that stretch for several miles.
I wish my climbing was such that I could run an 11-23t block, unfortunately its not so I have to accept the element of compromise.
... which on a 50x11 is going to take 150+rpm, which you've said you can't do (and I don't blame you, I'd find it really uncomfortable and probably impossible to keep up for more than a few seconds, not that I have tried)
Fastest you can get while keeping it below 110rpm is a bit over 39mph, if you're trying to tell us you aren't a big spinner on descents but you like to keep pedalling hard up to 45 or 50mph then something doesn't add up (sorry).0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19622883#p19622883]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
If the hill's steep, you should be able to get to 45mph without pedalling at all, but 110rpm or less isn't exactly 'push[ing] hard downhill', not unless it's a really long descent the like of which we don't have in Britain.
And if I want to get to 55mph I want to have a gear that will enable me to do that.
I'm not sure why you are adamant that there are no long descents in Britain, living between the N.Yorks Moors and Dales I can think of plenty descents that stretch for several miles.
I wish my climbing was such that I could run an 11-23t block, unfortunately its not so I have to accept the element of compromise.
Getting up to 55mph would require a cadence of over 150rpm even if you did have an 11t - a bit higher than your 'chosen cadence'!
But stretching for several miles isn't a long descent, is it? If you are in the mountains somewhere and going downhill for more like an hour or more than a few minutes, at race pace, then you would be in a better position to argue that you 'need' an 11t sprocket.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19623283#p19623283]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19622883#p19622883]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
If the hill's steep, you should be able to get to 45mph without pedalling at all, but 110rpm or less isn't exactly 'push[ing] hard downhill', not unless it's a really long descent the like of which we don't have in Britain.
And if I want to get to 55mph I want to have a gear that will enable me to do that.
I'm not sure why you are adamant that there are no long descents in Britain, living between the N.Yorks Moors and Dales I can think of plenty descents that stretch for several miles.
I wish my climbing was such that I could run an 11-23t block, unfortunately its not so I have to accept the element of compromise.
Getting up to 55mph would require a cadence of over 150rpm even if you did have an 11t - a bit higher than your 'chosen cadence'!
But stretching for several miles isn't a long descent, is it? If you are in the mountains somewhere and going downhill for more like an hour or more than a few minutes, at race pace, then you would be in a better position to argue that you 'need' an 11t sprocket.
So only racers who live in a mountainous region need an 11t? :roll:
What sprocket do you think appropriate as a highest gear?0 -
So only racers who live in a mountainous region need an 11t? :roll:
What sprocket do you think appropriate as a highest gear?
No, plenty of people might want an 11t. However it won't really help you to go down steep descents at 45+mph regardless of where you live - once you get above a certain mph on a descent (personally I reckon around 35 for me) getting more aero has a much bigger impact on speeds than trying to spin a ludicrous cadence, except maybe if you were slowing a lot for hairpins or similar (you would need a 60x11 or something to keep pedalling at a reasonable cadence at the kind of speeds you're talking about).
The place it's most useful is on gentler downhills or with a big tailwind where you're actually able to sustain 30-odd mph at a sensible cadence - not when you're trying to get down a big descent as fast as possible, when your position on the bike will make a much bigger difference.0 -
[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19623283#p19623283]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19622883#p19622883]Simon Masterson[/url] wrote:Well I am sorry but I am not convinced at all about the use of a 11 T especially for the OP.
I have never used a 11T or 12T in any race. If someone claims to use a 11t a lot then they must be doing 45mph a lot, or pedalling with very low cadence, up to them I suppose. pedalling 80rpm on a 50 x 11 gives 28.5mph which is some going.
Perhaps I am doing 45mph a lot
As I said, I like to push hard downhill and 12t just isn't enough at my chosen cadence.
Perhaps I just have to wait for 12spd to come out so I can have my coffee, cake and eat it
If the hill's steep, you should be able to get to 45mph without pedalling at all, but 110rpm or less isn't exactly 'push[ing] hard downhill', not unless it's a really long descent the like of which we don't have in Britain.
And if I want to get to 55mph I want to have a gear that will enable me to do that.
I'm not sure why you are adamant that there are no long descents in Britain, living between the N.Yorks Moors and Dales I can think of plenty descents that stretch for several miles.
I wish my climbing was such that I could run an 11-23t block, unfortunately its not so I have to accept the element of compromise.
Getting up to 55mph would require a cadence of over 150rpm even if you did have an 11t - a bit higher than your 'chosen cadence'!
But stretching for several miles isn't a long descent, is it? If you are in the mountains somewhere and going downhill for more like an hour or more than a few minutes, at race pace, then you would be in a better position to argue that you 'need' an 11t sprocket.
So only racers who live in a mountainous region need an 11t? :roll:
What sprocket do you think appropriate as a highest gear?
Pretty much. 12 and 13 would give a better spread of gears, particularly with a 28-32 low gear, it's a shame they don't offer these cassettes.0 -
I'm sticking with my 11 in the Highlands and I'm no racer. There's plenty of opportunities to use it. So what if I miss a tooth somewhere else in the cassette.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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There's an app available for Android called Gear Calculator, might be worth having a look at that.0
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[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19623644#p19623644]cabbageandbacon[/url] wrote:There's an app available for Android called Gear Calculator, might be worth having a look at that.
I used the Gear Calculator app - never again! It suggested my pale cerise linen shirt with taupe chinos and those ugly brogues that I ought really to have re-heeled. In what way is that a look I should aspire to?
But seriously for a moment.... whether this thread is a spoof or not (and I'm not on the fence here) a cyclist has asked for advice, been given it and is now dreaming (or not) of 12-speed cassettes.
Some people still like to grind away at low cadences, as I did for many years. It isn't wrong. It's not 'contemporary' but it isn't wrong. Some people can hit daft-high RPM on a fixie or a turbo or even on the flat. Very few people are happy over 120-125 on a big descent. Some are; most aren't. Beyond those pedal speeds, it's all down to Darwin and the invention of gravity.
Gears is like money: If you have £11 million and think £12 Million would make you happy, then it isn't the money.
If you have a 10-speed or 11-speed cassette and are agonising over gear spacing and high ratios, then it isn't the gearing.
Ignore the gaps, go for your preferred tallest and shortest ratios and enjoy the ride.0
