Gear ratio advice required.

drlodge · June 2015

meanredspider wrote:

The steps don't bother me provided I've got something short enough for the climbs and ride I'm doing.

This ---^ The only thing I worry about is what low gear I'll need and 99% of the time its 34x29 for the Surrey hills. After that I couldn't care less whether I have an 11T or 12T for the descents since (a) they don't last very long (b) I can go just as quickly by not pedalling at all (c) with an 11sp setup the intermediate gears are all very close ratios.

Lookyhere · June 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

I disagree re. saving energy. I've just been spinning at 100+ for an hour or so up the Tourmalet, and I'm taking on Peyresourde next. I want to descent reasonably quickly, but without pushing myself hard, and not spinning like a madman. Therefore some aero descending, with some lower cadence, low power pedalling to keep speed up a bit, works fairly well for me.

Hold a 100 + rpm, on your 34/28, for an hour, up the Tourmalent (a Strava HC?) thats over 15kph and your in the top 10 for the Strava segment, thats cool 8)

Jesus, it's just to give a rough idea - I was 'spinning' as best I could, and yes, in the 34-28. Strava has me at between 12 and 13kph, so 80+ cadence then. Happy?

i was merely congratulating you on your climbing prowess, i had no idea you did nt actually maintain 100 PLUS for an hour up the Tourmalet, i feel perhaps i was too quick off the mark with my fulsome praise :oops:
But still a good effort.

First.Aspect · June 2015

One advantage to an 11t cassette is that longer gears become accessible at lower chain angles in the small ring. For lumpy terrain, I find this is useful and can reduce front ring shifts, particularly if you are on a compact (where chain rub is more of an issue than a standard).

And a 50x12 is too short. For long descents (lets say 5 mins or more), if you just rest, your legs will be cold lumps of pork by the bottom. You want to be able to turn over a gear of some sort, and a 50x11 is good for keeping the blood flowing without castrating yourself by spinning like Chris Hoy.

First.Aspect · June 2015

meanredspider wrote:

Anybody that claims to know what gears are "right" for another person is misguided. Climbing, in particular, is incredibly personal: standing, seated, mashing, spinning - there's no "right" answer for everyone.

Within reason - we are after all built to generally the same plan. Below a certain cadence, you can't recruit the right muscles. If you are grinding away out of the saddle at 50 rpm or something, then you are using back and arm muscles more than your leg muscles. Leg muscles are stronger.

meanredspider · June 2015

First Aspect wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Anybody that claims to know what gears are "right" for another person is misguided. Climbing, in particular, is incredibly personal: standing, seated, mashing, spinning - there's no "right" answer for everyone.

Within reason - we are after all built to generally the same plan. Below a certain cadence, you can't recruit the right muscles. If you are grinding away out of the saddle at 50 rpm or something, then you are using back and arm muscles more than your leg muscles. Leg muscles are stronger.

Of course - but some riders like a slower cadence and some higher. Even within the pro peleton cadences vary and some riders will climb almost entirely standing whilst, typically the larger riders will remain seated. Seated vs standing is worth at least a couple of cogs. 80 vs 100rpm "natural" cadence also has to be worth a couple. And we haven't even begun to discuss that some riders are flexible around their cadence whereas some have a pretty narrow ideal band. All of that means that, whilst I'm rocking a 12-30 for a ride, my 60kg mountain goat of a mate runs a 12-27 or 12-25. This difference might even be reversed on an entirely flat ride on a windy day.

meanredspider · June 2015

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

On that basis you only need 12-14-16-19-22-25-28.

I can tell the difference between 40 and 44mph

First.Aspect · June 2015

meanredspider wrote:

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

On that basis you only need 12-14-16-19-22-25-28.

I can tell the difference between 40 and 44mph

Agreed. If I'm comfortable at a given cadence, a drop of 5 or 10 will have me fishing for another gear. I don't monitor my cadence. Used to. Turns out its pointless becuase you can intuitively feel changes like this.

ai_1 · June 2015

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

I disagree.
9% is a pretty significant difference and I would most definitely notice the difference between 80 and 87rpm. I would generally change gear if the cadence dropped to 80 on the flat or a descent.
I would definitely notice the fact that I didn't have the 11 under some circumstances. However, my preference would be to forgo the 11 in favour of a tighter cassette given the choice.

marcusjb · June 2015

Ai_1 wrote:

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

I disagree.
9% is a pretty significant difference and I would most definitely notice the difference between 80 and 87rpm. I would generally change gear if the cadence dropped to 80 on the flat or a descent.
I would definitely notice the fact that I didn't have the 11 under some circumstances. However, my preference would be to forgo the 11 in favour of a tighter cassette given the choice.

I'd agree that 9% is massive.

I changed gear for the first time in 7 months a couple of weeks ago. I've gone approximately 6% higher and it's huge. Always surprises me what a difference a small change makes (now riding 45*18 from 45*19).

Rodrego Hernandez · June 2015

the Op only wanted advice, not a load of anecdotal 'evidence' from people who are convinced they need to ride an 11 in order to scrape a finish in the Etape.

A decent spread of gears without large jumps combined with a decent pedalling technique keeping the gears down and maintaining a high / efficient cadence will suffice. Consider that if a full time professional rider is riding 53/11, are you really close to being as strong as they are? I don't think so.

ai_1 · June 2015

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

the Op only wanted advice, not a load of anecdotal 'evidence' from people who are convinced they need to ride an 11 in order to scrape a finish in the Etape.

A decent spread of gears without large jumps combined with a decent pedalling technique keeping the gears down and maintaining a high / efficient cadence will suffice. Consider that if a full time professional rider is riding 53/11, are you really close to being as strong as they are? I don't think so.

So your advice is what exactly?
What constitutes "a decent spread of gears without large jumps"? That's exactly the debate that you seem to be objecting to and yet you suggest the answer to that question is the solution to the OPs query. It's a discussion forum. Opinions have been given, just like yours. People are discussing them, just as you now are. What's the problem?

debeli · June 2015

All of the advice in this thread has been excellent, concise and helpful.

It was the question from the OP which was wrong.

He ought to have asked: Given the ratios I have, should I be using shorter cranks and narrower tyres.

The answer would be mostly yes but also slightly no.

It depends on the price of the frame.

bernithebiker · June 2015

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

the Op only wanted advice, not a load of anecdotal 'evidence' from people who are convinced they need to ride an 11 in order to scrape a finish in the Etape.

Scrape a finish? Somewhat condescending, dontcha think?

Do you know where everyone here finished in the Etape? Are you sure you're faster than everyone here?

And you still miss the point; noone here is saying that by riding an 11 they're as strong as a pro. It's just a preference to have a high gear for long descents (especially when riding a 50, not a 53).

Lookyhere · June 2015

Surely, considering that alpine descents are interspersed with, usually sharp bends and you spend far more time climbing than descending, a closer spread of gears is preferable, esp on the less steep sections where the middle of the cassette is used?
In the uk, an 11t on most descents is pretty much unuseable anyway, given the road repair and that they are fairly short?
though having said that, it appears that most riders, use the 50x11 and the 34x28 and rarely anything else in-between....only joking

ai_1 · June 2015

Lookyhere wrote:

Surely, considering that alpine descents are interspersed with, usually sharp bends and you spend far more time climbing than descending, a closer spread of gears is preferable, esp on the less steep sections where the middle of the cassette is used?
though having said that, it appears that most riders, use the 50x11 and the 34x28 and rarely anything else in-between....only joking

I think it depends as someone else mentioned, on whether you're more bothered by slightly increased gaps between gears or the inability to turn the pedals at lower cadence during descent. I'd like both a wide range of gears and a single tooth difference between all sprockets, I can't have that (11 speed triple perhaps?) but the lower cadence during descent isn't a dealbreaker so I'd be inclined to give that up for a tighter cassette if I was going above a 28 tooth largest sprocket.

bobmcstuff · June 2015

joe2008 wrote:

moyesie wrote:

Thanks for all the replies
I did notice with a move to a 28t on the winter bike my climbing didn't improve, my cadence on 28t stayed the same as 25t with the added 'bonus' of being slower!

...and maybe that this is why compacts do not help climbing as much as some may think*, it seems easier, but usually at the cost of speed.

That's just laziness though surely...

I've come within the top 5% in the hill climbs on the two recent sportives I've done with timed hill climbs. So I hope that shows I'm not a terrible climber (although of course there are people much faster than me). I run a compact and a 30-12 on both my bikes, I much prefer spinning at 80 or 90 rpm to turning even 70 or 75 rpm, and I've found that gives me much faster times. So I'd disagree with those who have said that smaller gears just make you slower, if you're competitive and want to go fast up hills then you want the most efficient gears for you. Maybe if you're happy to always be in the lowest gear crawling up climbs then it'll make you slower but if you like to push it then having extra options can only be a good thing. On the descents I've found I normally find it easy to overtake people just by getting into a good tuck. I can see the argument for wanting to keep the legs turning on longer descents though.

However I've recently started going to club chaingangs and I find that the ratios in a 30-12 seem too widely spaced for that kind of group riding and I'm thinking of fitting a narrower range cassette for that. Personally if I'm doing a hilly ride I'm not sure about I'll always go for the lowest gears I can fit - not having enough high gears just means I might descend a little slower (maybe) but not having the low bailout gear might mean I don't get round at all. Not everyone's the same though.

norvernrob · June 2015

I recently had a howling tailwind coming out of the Peak District into Sheffield, so I hammered it down the descent (average 5.6% for just under a mile). I averaged 45mph for 0.8 miles, topping out at 50.6mph. My top gear is 50/12 and I was pedalling right up to 44-45mph (the road wasn't steep enough to maintain that speed in a tuck so I had to keep pushing my speed back up).

It's only the 2nd or 3rd time I've spun out that gear, as normally I would be tucked well before then on anything steeper. It just happened that the big tailwind gave me a huge push so I hammered it.

Basically, unless you're not very good at pedalling a decent cadence or are really powerful, 50/12 is more than enough for the vast majority of the time in the UK. Just my opinion obviously.

I use a 12-27 now which gives me enough gears for everything from a 25% climb to a fast downhill, I used to run an 11-28 and don't miss the 11 or 28 but do notice the slightly closer ratios help keep my cadence smooth.

Ps my mate has a 50/11 top gear and I leave him on descents, I'm not more powerful just more aero.

ai_1 · June 2015

joe2008 wrote:

moyesie wrote:

Thanks for all the replies
I did notice with a move to a 28t on the winter bike my climbing didn't improve, my cadence on 28t stayed the same as 25t with the added 'bonus' of being slower!

...and maybe that this is why compacts do not help climbing as much as some may think*, it seems easier, but usually at the cost of speed.

I would say your comments are a little confused. It rather depends why you want the compact. If you can climb alright on the standard there's no real reason to expect you'll go faster up the same climb on a compact. Why would you think that?
The point of a compact is to allow you go slower if you want or need to. OR to use a higher cadence if you want or need to. Generally the latter will be to reduce leg fatigue and though it may make you faster later in the ride due to your legs being in better shape, it's not going to magically make you faster up a specific climb otherwise.

On a hill, slower = easier
So yes, a compact or a big sprocket allows you go slower. That's how it makes it easier. But it doesn't force you to take it easy, it just permits it.

meanredspider · June 2015

NorvernRob wrote:

Ps my mate has a 50/11 top gear and I leave him on descents, I'm not more powerful just more aero.

If we're just doing anecdotes, I'm one of the fastest down most of the hills in my area - my friends nickname me "Bomber" for just that reason. In fact, on a charity ride from Inverness to Edinburgh over the Cairngorms, I was selected to do the second half because I could tow them down the hills (I hit nearly 60mph at one point). I'm big, which helps - and I must be reasonably aero - I also run a 50/11 top gear (I can't match my times on a 12). What does that show? Nothing other than it depends on the rider and the hills. We have some big hills in the Highlands.

meanredspider · June 2015

Ai_1 wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

moyesie wrote:

Thanks for all the replies
I did notice with a move to a 28t on the winter bike my climbing didn't improve, my cadence on 28t stayed the same as 25t with the added 'bonus' of being slower!

...and maybe that this is why compacts do not help climbing as much as some may think*, it seems easier, but usually at the cost of speed.

I would say your comments are a little confused. It rather depends why you want the compact. If you can climb alright on the standard there's no real reason to expect you'll go faster up the same climb on a compact. Why would you think that?
The point of a compact is to allow you go slower if you want or need to. OR to use a higher cadence if you want or need to. Generally the latter will be to reduce leg fatigue and though it may make you faster later in the ride due to your legs being in better shape, it's not going to magically make you faster up a specific climb otherwise.

On a hill, slower = easier
So yes, a compact or a big sprocket allows you go slower. That's how it makes it easier. But it doesn't force you to take it easy, it just permits it.

The only time I think a short gear is a hinderance is if you do a regular ride and you select a gear out of habit. My commute used to take me up a reasonably steep hill in the first mile. I got into the habit of using a 28. Then one day I rode up it in a 25. I was faster but only because I'd got fitter.

To the point above, the day I did my 6 ascents of Alpe D'Huez, I stuck it in the 30 at the bottom and paced myself all the way up. I was slow but then I was planning on doing 6 ascents not doing fewer faster. It's NOT always about being fast.

bernithebiker · June 2015

cyd190468 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

On that basis you only need 12-14-16-19-22-25-28.

I can tell the difference between 40 and 44mph

That's because humans are quite good at judging speed, however they are terrible at judging cadence. Can you feel the difference between 40mph pushing an 11 and 40 mph pushing a 12?

That's a cadence of 112 versus 123, so yes, I could feel that.

And highlights my point, that 112 would be more economical for me; so I could hold 40mph on a long descent with fairly minimal pedaling input, at a cadence that saves energy versus a higher one.

ai_1 · June 2015

cyd190468 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

On that basis you only need 12-14-16-19-22-25-28.

I can tell the difference between 40 and 44mph

That's because humans are quite good at judging speed, however they are terrible at judging cadence. Can you feel the difference between 40mph pushing an 11 and 40 mph pushing a 12?

Yes. As before, there is a significant and noticable difference between these gears.
I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. It seems like you're trying to rationalise away the need for gears. i.e. 11 and 12 are less than 10% apart so 12 will do.....in that case, hey 28 and 26 are less than 10% apart so they're basically the same too, right? While we're at it 26 is almost the same as 25. So a 12-25 is basically indistinguishable from a 11-28.......But it's not!
There is a noticeable and relevant difference between an 11 and 12 tooth sprocket. I think you're he only one questioning that. What's more legitimately debatable is whether a given individual is likely to miss the 11 tooth sprocket if they don't have it, and if so, whether it's worth the sacrifice to obtain a more closely spaced cassette.

gimpl · June 2015

As an older fart I personally would prefer that the gaps were closer on the higher teeth sprockets not the lower ones. So currently running an 11sp 11-28 which is ok but would prefer 28, 27, 26, 25, 24, 22, 21, 19, 17, 15, 13 (or 12, don't care).

I'm certainly not educated enough in this area to be able to know whether this is even possible, I'm sure someone will tell me!

sloppyschleckonds · June 2015

meanredspider wrote:

To the point above, the day I did my 6 ascents of Alpe D'Huez, I stuck it in the 30 at the bottom and paced myself all the way up.

You did 6 ascents of Alpe D'Huez!?

bernithebiker · June 2015

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

To the point above, the day I did my 6 ascents of Alpe D'Huez, I stuck it in the 30 at the bottom and paced myself all the way up.

You did 6 ascents of Alpe D'Huez!?

Not really my idea of fun, but kudos! The Dutch have a charity day where they see how many times they can go up it (and down) in one day. Pretty mental party day with huge crowds and bands at every bend......

moyesie · June 2015

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

I did

When I first rode my Wilier it felt a bit 'lacking' when I was pedalling on a downhill section, turns out it was a 12-25 Miche cassette which I swapped out for a Campag 11-25.

Also as I alluded to in a previous post it was noticeable on the hire bike I had in Tenerife.

For me, on certain descents, the 11t works best, I've never been a 110+ rpm spinner and I doubt I ever will be!

simon_masterson · June 2015

moyesie wrote:

cyd190468 wrote:

11t vs 12t equals a 9% gear difference. If you were riding blind you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Can anyone really feel the difference between a cadence of 80 vs 87?

I did

When I first rode my Wilier it felt a bit 'lacking' when I was pedalling on a downhill section, turns out it was a 12-25 Miche cassette which I swapped out for a Campag 11-25.

Also as I alluded to in a previous post it was noticeable on the hire bike I had in Tenerife.

For me, on certain descents, the 11t works best, I've never been a 110+ rpm spinner and I doubt I ever will be!

For what it's worth, you told us earlier that

moyesie wrote:

When it comes to descending I am on the 'enthusiastic' side and do not hold back

but you're also telling us that you struggle with a very normal cadence - what I take from this is that your fitness could use some work. Not saying you shouldn't have the 11t, but improving your leg speed would benefit your riding.

moyesie · June 2015

Simon Masterson wrote:

you're also telling us that you struggle with a very normal cadence - what I take from this is that your fitness could use some work. Not saying you shouldn't have the 11t, but improving your leg speed would benefit your riding.

Please don't confuse not wishing to cycle a high cadence vs. being unable to maintain a high cadence.

I've spent plenty of time on the bike with a cadence sensor and also on the spin bikes and I've come to realise that my 'happy' cadence is 90-100.

And yes, along with 99.9% of us on here, my fitness could be improved upon

oldwelshman · June 2015

I don't understand why people say they need a 11. You will spin out on alpine descents and not go as fast as you can if aero. To do 50mph takes high cadence, I have gone 60mph many times but never when pedalling

I would go for bigger sprockets and keep gaps to minimum. I rarely use my 12 in a race let alone on my own ;-)

First.Aspect · June 2015

oldwelshman wrote:

I don't understand why people say they need a 11. You will spin out on alpine descents and not go as fast as you can if aero. To do 50mph takes high cadence, I have gone 60mph many times but never when pedalling I would go for bigger sprockets and keep gaps to minimum. I rarely use my 12 in a race let alone on my own ;-)

Its not just about the longest gear, its about the usability of the others. There was an article on VN recently explaining that pro teams now use a wider range cassette on TT bikes. Not because of a hilly course, but to enable the rider to stay in the big ring (allegedly a W or two more efficient) for longer on climbs.

Having an 11t with a 50 is, for me, an occasionally used gear. A 34x12-14 is more common on lumpy terrain. If I have a 12-25 cassette, I can't use those gears (or, at least the 34x12) without chain rub on the big ring. So its kind of the slow amateur equivalent of why the pro teams do it.

Okay, perhaps I shouldn't cross the chain that far anyway, but I do. So there.

Gear ratio advice required.

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