Impey - Cleared of doping

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Comments

  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,958
    Pokerface wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Soda doping:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18607226
    http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.abstract

    legal and some evidence of efficacy (only skimmed these abstracts).

    I'm not entirely questioning why Impey would use bicarb, or choose to put it in capsules, etc.

    But having used it many times myself, from what I know, the science says it's only useful in efforts up to 7-8 minutes max for lactate buffering. And you would be taking .3g per kg of body weight to facilitate.

    We use it on the track a lot for Pursuit efforts as it works a charm. (Racing only as it plays havoc with your digestive system).

    So him using it for a longer event plus having it in gel capsules is odd to me. There IS a protocol where you load it up over 3 days - smaller doses more often - so it's possible he was doing it this way. But the effectiveness would still be limited in a longer event.


    Reposting here my post from the other place

    http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/soda-loading.htm

    The generally accepted protocol for bicarbonate loading is to divide the calculated total dose into five relatively even amounts and, starting three hours before competition, to stagger the intake at 30-minute intervals so that loading is complete an hour before the start.
    So 70kg athlete say a 15g dose

    3g every half hour
    6 500mg capsules.

    Doesn't seem unreasonable


    Athletes have been practising ‘soda loading’ or ‘bicarbonate loading’ for over 70 years in an attempt to delay the onset of muscular fatigue during prolonged anaerobic exercise.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    Surprised that no one has commented on the link between taking sodium bicarbonate, which Impey admits to, and taking Probenecid (sic. Probenicid) which is what he was tested 'positive' for. Apparently, it is pretty standard practice to take the two together. This is because Probenecid increases the excretion of uric acid (which causes gout) and taking sodium bicarbonate allows more of this acid to be excreted by increasing the alkalinity of the urine. Quite a coincidence...
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,212
    Interesting article about the Daryl Impey case:

    http://groundup.org.za/article/daryl-im ... -case_2192
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,175
    r0bh wrote:
    Interesting article about the Daryl Impey case:

    http://groundup.org.za/article/daryl-im ... -case_2192
    The problem with that article is that it has no actual facts in it. It's all supposition with no support. Words like scenario, could, might, suggestion, possibly, alternatively etc appear frequently. Also there's a lot of subjective assessment of chance.

    One line, which provides the crux of much of the article, is: Most intriguing however is the suggestion being made by some that SAIDS had accepted Impey’s defence without a challenge before a tribunal. . As Wikipedia would say 'citation needed'. Who are these 'some'? Are they experts in the field or are they people on an internet forum?

    Creating doubt about anything is a piece of cake (people have been doing it with regard to things like evolution or the moon landings for decades)? Interesting it may be. It may even be right. But I don't find it compelling.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,958
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Surprised that no one has commented on the link between taking sodium bicarbonate, which Impey admits to, and taking Probenecid (sic. Probenicid) which is what he was tested 'positive' for. Apparently, it is pretty standard practice to take the two together. This is because Probenecid increases the excretion of uric acid (which causes gout) and taking sodium bicarbonate allows more of this acid to be excreted by increasing the alkalinity of the urine. Quite a coincidence...

    Not really a coincidence - google any 2 chemicals/drugs and you'll must likely find a connection.

    It's the Kevin Bacon school of detective work
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,016
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Surprised that no one has commented on the link between taking sodium bicarbonate, which Impey admits to, and taking Probenecid (sic. Probenicid) which is what he was tested 'positive' for. Apparently, it is pretty standard practice to take the two together. This is because Probenecid increases the excretion of uric acid (which causes gout) and taking sodium bicarbonate allows more of this acid to be excreted by increasing the alkalinity of the urine. Quite a coincidence...

    I don't follow your logic here - do you think Impey was taking probenecid for his gout?
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Surprised that no one has commented on the link between taking sodium bicarbonate, which Impey admits to, and taking Probenecid (sic. Probenicid) which is what he was tested 'positive' for. Apparently, it is pretty standard practice to take the two together. This is because Probenecid increases the excretion of uric acid (which causes gout) and taking sodium bicarbonate allows more of this acid to be excreted by increasing the alkalinity of the urine. Quite a coincidence...

    I don't follow your logic here - do you think Impey was taking probenecid for his gout?

    I don't know if Impey was taking anything and have no real views as to whether he was or not. However, if a rider was taking probenicid they would be doing this in order to speed up the excretion of something else they were using, i.e. as a making agent. If they were taking it a side effect would be to increase the amount of uric acid in their urine (irrespective of whether or not they had gout), so they would probably take bicarb as well, as is normal medicinal practice, in order to increase the alkalinity of their urine, thereby aiding the excretion of this excess.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,016
    Probenecid inhibits the transport of drugs like testosterone into the urine - so they don't appear elevated in urine. It does indeed speed up uric acid excretion because it prevents re-absorption.
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Probenecid inhibits the transport of drugs like testosterone into the urine - so they don't appear elevated in urine. It does indeed speed up uric acid excretion because it prevents re-absorption.

    Sounds like a useful drug to have on hand. Thanks for clarifying how its action as a masking agent works!
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,212
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Surprised that no one has commented on the link between taking sodium bicarbonate, which Impey admits to, and taking Probenecid (sic. Probenicid) which is what he was tested 'positive' for. Apparently, it is pretty standard practice to take the two together. This is because Probenecid increases the excretion of uric acid (which causes gout) and taking sodium bicarbonate allows more of this acid to be excreted by increasing the alkalinity of the urine. Quite a coincidence...

    I don't follow your logic here - do you think Impey was taking probenecid for his gout?

    I don't know if Impey was taking anything and have no real views as to whether he was or not. However, if a rider was taking probenicid they would be doing this in order to speed up the excretion of something else they were using, i.e. as a making agent. If they were taking it a side effect would be to increase the amount of uric acid in their urine (irrespective of whether or not they had gout), so they would probably take bicarb as well, as is normal medicinal practice, in order to increase the alkalinity of their urine, thereby aiding the excretion of this excess.

    Are you ever going to stop making this stuff up? :lol::lol:
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    r0bh wrote:
    Are you ever going to stop making this stuff up?

    I did not 'make up' the fact that many patients who are put on Probenecid are also put onto a course of sodium bicarbonate in order to make their urine more alkaline, so aiding the excretion of the uric acid that otherwise would build up in their blood. (As another poster has already mentioned, this happens because the Probenecid inhibits the re-absorption of uric acid.)

    Naturally, taking sodium bicarbonate is particularly necessary for those who have gout because a further build up of uric acid in the blood of such individuals will make their gout worse, given that gout is itself caused by raised levels of uric acid. However, everybody produces uric acid and it would seem logical that if you are taking a drug (such as Probenecid) that would tend to cause the level of uric acid in the blood to increase, then taking something to counter this effect might well be a good policy. (Such hyperuricemia can lead to kidneystones as well as gout itself.)

    For example, see

    http://tinyurl.com/mdde2hp

    and..

    As uric acid tends to crystallize out of an acid urine, a liberal fluid intake is recommended, as well as sufficient sodium bicarbonate (3 to 7.5 g daily), or potassium citrate (7.5 g daily) to maintain an alkaline urine

    http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/ar ... iveid=1112

    etc.

    Whatever, all I originally said was that I was surprised no one had commented on the co-use of Probenecid and sodium bicarbonate, given that searching for Probenecid brings up plenty of links about the medical link between the two.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,212
    What connection is there between patients being treated for gout and doping?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,175
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    Whatever, all I originally said was that I was surprised no one had commented on the co-use of Probenecid and sodium bicarbonate, given that searching for Probenecid brings up plenty of links about the medical link between the two.
    If he was taking Bicarbonate of Soda to counteract probenicid it doesn't explain why he was buying the capsules or taking the capsules. He wouldn't need to take it in a race, he could just use a spoon.

    Bicarbonate of Soda is a household product which is a mild alkali and as such has many, many uses. Just as vinegar or lemon juice do on the acidic side.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,016
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    Are you ever going to stop making this stuff up?

    I did not 'make up' the fact that many patients who are put on Probenecid are also put onto a course of sodium bicarbonate in order to make their urine more alkaline, so aiding the excretion of the uric acid that otherwise would build up in their blood. (As another poster has already mentioned, this happens because the Probenecid inhibits the re-absorption of uric acid.)

    Naturally, taking sodium bicarbonate is particularly necessary for those who have gout because a further build up of uric acid in the blood of such individuals will make their gout worse, given that gout is itself caused by raised levels of uric acid. However, everybody produces uric acid and it would seem logical that if you are taking a drug (such as Probenecid) that would tend to cause the level of uric acid in the blood to increase, then taking something to counter this effect might well be a good policy. (Such hyperuricemia can lead to kidneystones as well as gout itself.)

    For example, see

    http://tinyurl.com/mdde2hp

    and..

    As uric acid tends to crystallize out of an acid urine, a liberal fluid intake is recommended, as well as sufficient sodium bicarbonate (3 to 7.5 g daily), or potassium citrate (7.5 g daily) to maintain an alkaline urine

    http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/ar ... iveid=1112

    etc.

    Whatever, all I originally said was that I was surprised no one had commented on the co-use of Probenecid and sodium bicarbonate, given that searching for Probenecid brings up plenty of links about the medical link between the two.

    You are making the bit up about probenecid increasing blood uric acid - it does the opposite.
    It stops reabsorption of uric acid (back into the blood from the urine), so MORE goes into the urine.
    Bit about kidney stones looks right though - these form in the urine, not the blood.
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    RichN95 wrote:
    BenderRodriguez wrote:
    If he was taking Bicarbonate of Soda to counteract probenicid it doesn't explain why he was buying the capsules or taking the capsules. He wouldn't need to take it in a race, he could just use a spoon.

    If (IF...) his 'programme' included Probenecid, along with sodium bicarbonate to ensure that uric acid didn't build up in his body, then why not take that sodium bicarbonate in capsule form during the racing, thereby benefiting from a possible 'lactate buffering' effect as well?
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • BenderRodriguez
    BenderRodriguez Posts: 907
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    You are making the bit up about probenecid increasing blood uric acid - it does the opposite.
    It stops reabsorption of uric acid (back into the blood from the urine), so MORE goes into the urine.
    Bit about kidney stones looks right though - these form in the urine, not the blood.

    I am not trying to 'make things up', but I must admit that after all this 'banter' on the topic I am even more confused about the mechanisms involved than I was to start with. :lol:

    Whatever, the bottom line is that sodium bicarbonate is often used in conjunction with Probenecid in order enhance the excretion of uric acid in the urine. The amounts used are also pretty much the same as those used when sodium bicarbonate is legitimately used as a 'lactate buffering' doping agent.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,958
    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/10/saids ... ed-to-cas/

    Interesting summary of the reasoned decision.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!

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