Impey - Cleared of doping
Comments
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RichN95 wrote:
Yeah, I know. I was pointing out that a lot of teams wouldn't have let Impey do that because of the risks.Above The Cows wrote:But in Impey's case this wasn't a supplement but a home made booster made with something you can buy in the baking isle and some empty gel capsules.
Ah, I see.
Still for Impey he has a post race career as home-made pharmaceutical manufacturer sorted, I hear there's an opening in the Albuquerque area.Correlation is not causation.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
He's not trying to be funny. He's pointing out that it's not banned because it is essentially food.frenchfighter wrote:TailWindHome wrote:
What a comedian.
To be fair though a serious pro-cyclist should be laying off the cakes and baked goods
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EDIT - *we now have the answer to why Jan was still so fast while so fat!Correlation is not causation.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Pokerface wrote:Mad_Malx wrote:Soda doping:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18607226
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.abstract
legal and some evidence of efficacy (only skimmed these abstracts).
I'm not entirely questioning why Impey would use bicarb, or choose to put it in capsules, etc.
But having used it many times myself, from what I know, the science says it's only useful in efforts up to 7-8 minutes max for lactate buffering. And you would be taking .3g per kg of body weight to facilitate.
We use it on the track a lot for Pursuit efforts as it works a charm. (Racing only as it plays havoc with your digestive system).
So him using it for a longer event plus having it in gel capsules is odd to me. There IS a protocol where you load it up over 3 days - smaller doses more often - so it's possible he was doing it this way. But the effectiveness would still be limited in a longer event.
What other dubiously legal performance enhancing drugs do track athletes use?
Why is it not banned?
I think they might use dubious products such as carbohydrates for energy and protein to build and repair muscles. Some real deviants even use high quantities of sugar to get a short term boost. I guess questioning the use of everyday food items scientifically to assist performance is the ultimate end game in the point Bender Rodriguez has been pushing recently about whether something is cheating even if it isn't banned!0 -
Pokerface wrote:Mad_Malx wrote:Soda doping:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18607226
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/23/1/41.abstract
legal and some evidence of efficacy (only skimmed these abstracts).
I'm not entirely questioning why Impey would use bicarb, or choose to put it in capsules, etc.
But having used it many times myself, from what I know, the science says it's only useful in efforts up to 7-8 minutes max for lactate buffering. And you would be taking .3g per kg of body weight to facilitate.
We use it on the track a lot for Pursuit efforts as it works a charm. (Racing only as it plays havoc with your digestive system).
So him using it for a longer event plus having it in gel capsules is odd to me. There IS a protocol where you load it up over 3 days - smaller doses more often - so it's possible he was doing it this way. But the effectiveness would still be limited in a longer event.
I prefer the 'Combining with flour and buttermilk, baking, then filling with sausage bacon and egg' protocol.
Not very effective as a PED though“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
RichN95 wrote:
He's not trying to be funny. He's pointing out that it's not banned because it is essentially food.frenchfighter wrote:TailWindHome wrote:
What a comedian.
So a 'food product' is not prohibited even if it can be performance enhancing?Contador is the Greatest0 -
This is the issue with defining what is doping and what not. Just because something helps performance and has a name you don't immediately recognise because you're no aspiring Bake Off contestant doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Ban gels? Ban pasta? Ban bananas? Ban water? They do aid performancefrenchfighter wrote:What other dubiously legal performance enhancing drugs do track athletes use?
Why is it not banned?0 -
Pretty much. Eating vegetables enhances performance compared to eating doughnuts, but they don't ban vegetables because of it.frenchfighter wrote:So a 'food product' is not prohibited even if it can be performance enhancing?Twitter: @RichN950 -
frenchfighter wrote:RichN95 wrote:
He's not trying to be funny. He's pointing out that it's not banned because it is essentially food.frenchfighter wrote:TailWindHome wrote:
What a comedian.
So a 'food product' is not prohibited even if it can be performance enhancing?
Frenchie all food products are performance enhancing on some level.
Edit- Must resist having an Annemarie Mol moment.Correlation is not causation.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:RichN95 wrote:
He's not trying to be funny. He's pointing out that it's not banned because it is essentially food.frenchfighter wrote:TailWindHome wrote:
What a comedian.
So a 'food product' is not prohibited even if it can be performance enhancing?
Water is performance enhancing too; let's get back to the good old days and ban that as well :roll:0 -
FJS wrote:
This is the issue with defining what is doping and what not. Just because something helps performance and has a name you don't immediately recognise because you're no aspiring Bake Off contestant doesn't mean it needs to be banned. Ban gels? Ban pasta? Ban bananas? Ban water? They do aid performancefrenchfighter wrote:What other dubiously legal performance enhancing drugs do track athletes use?
Why is it not banned?
Exactly, I bet it is more enhancing then 5.0 × 10-11 grams of clen.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Ah, so that was where you were going with this.frenchfighter wrote:Exactly, I bet it is more enhancing then 5.0 × 10-11 grams of clen.Twitter: @RichN950 -
One of the founding father's of STS (Science and Technology Studies) and Actor-Network Theory, Bruno Latour, from the page open on my desk right now...Bruno Latour wrote:Thus, the questions to ask about any agent are simply the following: Does it make a difference in the course of another agent's actions or not? Is there some trial that allows us to detect this difference?
I love it when work life meets other life.Correlation is not causation.0 -
This thread is awesome. Keep it up!
And yes, it is really great to see the process going through so quickly. That said, we can't draw any meaningful conclusions from this, or the fact that so many cases take so long, simply because we rarely ever know the full facts.0 -
To avoid performance enhancement all pro-cyclists must now subsist on a diet of:
Cheap white wine
Jägerbombs
Smokey bacon frazzles
Cadbury's fruit and nut
Anything I left off the list?Correlation is not causation.0 -
But that's got fruit in it. And nuts. I'd consider that doping. Curly Wurlys are more acceptable.Above The Cows wrote:Cadbury's fruit and nut
Fried chicken should be allowed, I think, as along as you don't have a side of sweetcorn.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
But that's got fruit in it. And nuts. I'd consider that doping. Curly Wurlys are more acceptable.Above The Cows wrote:Cadbury's fruit and nut
Fried chicken should be allowed, I think, as along as you don't have a side of sweetcorn.
True, Curly Wurlys surely have far less nutritional content than a Fruit and Nut.
The fried chicken has to be from non-organic battery farmed chickens for it to count.
I'll add another couple:
Bitterballen and hagelslag.Correlation is not causation.0 -
I thought there was already?Above The Cows wrote:Well I never there's some cross over between the Great British Bake Off and cycling after all.
Mary Berry is a sub 25min club 10 rider so I heard.0 -
Above The Cows wrote:One of the founding father's of STS (Science and Technology Studies) and Actor-Network Theory, Bruno Latour, from the page open on my desk right now...Bruno Latour wrote:Thus, the questions to ask about any agent are simply the following: Does it make a difference in the course of another agent's actions or not? Is there some trial that allows us to detect this difference?
I love it when work life meets other life.
I think you need to be an academic to understand that quote. Uff, I'm tired reading it. Give me some Montaigne.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Above The Cows wrote:To avoid performance enhancement all pro-cyclists must now subsist on a diet of:
Cheap white wine
Jägerbombs
Smokey bacon frazzles
Cadbury's fruit and nut
Anything I left off the list?
Jagerbombs? The energy boost after one of those is incredible and they have on occassion helped me through to midnight on a night out when I was flagging at 10pm!!0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Give me some Montaigne.
Is that a PED or just a foodstuff?0 -
Above The Cows wrote:Fried chicken should be allowed, I think, as along as you don't have a side of sweetcorn.
Why do you think there are lots of huge Americans? Surely it is due to the HGH pumped into the cheap meat.
Which begs the question. If you give a prohibited drug to an animal and eat it is that legal?Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Above The Cows wrote:Fried chicken should be allowed, I think, as along as you don't have a side of sweetcorn.
Why do you think there are lots of huge Americans? Surely it is due to the HGH pumped into the cheap meat.
Which begs the question. If you give a prohibited drug to an animal and eat it is that legal?
I suspect it's more to do with the quantity they eat and the amount of fat and sugar in that food (he says having just eaten a sausage roll, egg mayo sandwich and bag of Doritos and about to tuck into a pastry).0 -
Well that depends. Does the drug then pass into the athletes system? If so, then you would have consumed the drug yourself, and that is illegal. (However, it may have considerable bearing on culpability)frenchfighter wrote:If you give a prohibited drug to an animal and eat it is that legal?
And as to your quaestion as to why Americans are so big: a) the size of the portions and b) corn syrupTwitter: @RichN950 -
Pross wrote:having just eaten a sausage roll, egg mayo sandwich and bag of Doritos and about to tuck into a pastry).
:shock:
They don't do things by halves over there do they. Going to wash that down with 5 pints Cardiff style? Contador is the Greatest0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Above The Cows wrote:One of the founding father's of STS (Science and Technology Studies) and Actor-Network Theory, Bruno Latour, from the page open on my desk right now...Bruno Latour wrote:Thus, the questions to ask about any agent are simply the following: Does it make a difference in the course of another agent's actions or not? Is there some trial that allows us to detect this difference?
I love it when work life meets other life.
I think you need to be an academic to understand that quote. Uff, I'm tired reading it. Give me some Montaigne.
It simply means that we should consider things other than humans to be actors or agents, to consider that they have power. So food is an agent, it makes a difference say to performance because without food you cannot perform. Or say bi-carbonate of soda, does it make a difference? The second sentence asks us if there is a way of testing this difference, to see whether or not the 'suspected' agent is indeed an agent. And as others have helpfully posted there are ways of testing bi-carbonate of soda to see whether or not it makes a difference.
It's exactly the thinking that goes into establishing whether something is a PED or not, does it make a difference, can we test for this difference. The decision then to class some things as PEDs and others as not is entirely normative.
Does this mean that people who take PEDs are not cheaters. No it doesn't. Does it mean that people who drink coffee are dopers. No it doesn't. Those are based on rules that have been normatively established and agreed upon as rules to be followed by dint of people agreeing to take part in the sport.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Laughs in incredulity.0
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So what would be a credible scenario for you?Joelsim wrote:Laughs in incredulity.
Because the alternative is this: Impey takes a doping product, and realises that he could test positive. So rather than just dropping out of the race and waiting for it to pass takes an even more easily identifiable masking agent (and a poor one at that) and not only enters the race but then wins it to ensure that he will be tested. Then after being caught goes to his pharmasist who has either amazingly luckily served the exact drug two hours earlier or has forged documents for Impey despite all the computerised records that pharmacists have to keep that can be cross-referenced - thereby gambling with his entire career and liberty.
That to you is more likely than someone being a bit sloppy at work?Twitter: @RichN950 -
I guess we will never know Rich.0
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RichN95 wrote:He's not trying to be funny. He's pointing out that it's not banned because it is essentially food.
So, what happens if someone's diet is deficient in sodium bicarbonate?
If a substance is not strictly needed for nutritional purposes (unlike protein, carbohydrate, vitamins and so forth) then how can it be considered 'food?
There is also the issue of taking substances in quantities or in concentrations that cannot be realistically derived from eating natural food products, such as creatine.
All such products that are 'performance enhancing' and are taken in unnecessary (from a health point of view) or unnatural quantities or concentrations are, strictly speaking, a form of doping, albeit a form of doping that is allowed by WADA rules."an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.0
