pro II's or XC hubs and XM vs XC

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Vegeeta

Dude... I invite you to use my wheels. Like I say, time will tell on the longevity thing. But they DO roll better than PRO IIs. Which for me is the most important thing, since I don't need to worry about cost.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

hahahaha what a stupid statement firstly with my reputation you wheels would be like a cartwheels.[:)] secondly i refer you to this
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Which for me is the most important thing, since I don't need to worry about cost.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
money IS a factor here.. that why the question is aimed at either Pro 2 or XC.

if money wasn't a factor then i wouldn't have those things. i'd have some nice DTSwiss or CK hubs which GRANTED (take not Veg this is called being UN-BIASED) WILL roll better than the Hope Pro 2. that's because they COST MORE. the Pro 2 is a workman like hub if i wasn't so lazy and serviced my hub's then i would have Shimano hub's but i'm lazy and i need something that lasts and wasn't stupid money... so the pro 2 is one of the best hub's out there. If cost wasn't a factor i would not have Pro 2's as they do drag and maybe are not the most free rolling of hub's but i can't expect the moon on a stick..

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Unknown · May 2007

Unfortunately FEA is not the last word here - its us, and how we ride. Even spoke tension is the key to any wheel.

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Vegeeta · May 2007

Hmm, yeh I did think about what state my rims would be in after I posted that.

But it's not like the Aireals are expensive anyway. My complete wheel build came to œ325 with DT comp Spokes and DT XR4.2 rims.

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Unknown · May 2007

Any better than XT on a mavic rim for a third the price? I'd take the XT everytime! And over hopes.

How come just Comps, why not get the triple butted alpines or super comps to support that hun eye better?

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Vegeeta · May 2007

When I got them built I wasn't quite such a tart as I am now, nor did I have trade discount.

I'm tempted to get them rebuilt with CX Rays to save another 100g or so but that'll cost me œ120. So for now I'll leave it.

Here's a good one for you, one of the local lads in Brighton runs a Norco DH bike and for his racing he runs a set of Aireal DH hubs with CX rays but a DT XR4.2 and just replaces the rim all the time [:o]

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Unknown · May 2007

Sounds like he needs to learn how to build wheels ;-)

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madmole · May 2007

Yep, the quality of the wheel build makes a huge difference. I use a tension meter (Parks) to make sure all my spokes are as even a tension as possible. You can feel that when you ride them and also it means that the wheels stay true almost forever. Thats how I get away with XC717 on revolution 2/1.5/1.8 triple butted spikes at Swinley

As I build wheels I have quite a collection at home, XT, Hope XC, Hope Pro2, LX, Quad. The longest lasting bearing wise have certainly been the Shimanos (especially the 95 XTs that have grease ports), BUT they do require regular stripping, regreasing and adjusting to live a long life. The Hopes are maintenance free, you just ride them untill the bearings go and then its a 3 min job to knock out the old ones and tap some new ones in (I even carry 4 spare ones in my backpack so I can do it in the field)

Age wise on my own wheels
LX used since 92, on about 4th set of balls, races begining to mark
XT used since 95, all original, greased every couple of months through the grease ports till fresh grease comes out
Quads, if they see a year out without the races disintigrating they are doing well
Hope XC, 2 years old, weekly use including water and still on original bearings
Hope Pro2, 1 year old, daily use, still on original bearing

Love the XT's, silent running, very smooth
Love the Pro's the pawl noise is the perfect rambler scatterer

Have built up Chris Kings for mates, very nice indeed but cant see the cost justifying them over the Shimano or Hopes
Spares and support could be an issue, so Shimamo win here but Hopes support is first class and spares dead easy to get.

I'm also pretty certain that symetrical hubs would be easier and cheaper to produce than asymetrics, so the designers obviously beleive theres a reason to do the extra work and take the extra cost of going asymetric

Spokes make the biggest difference to a wheel, they provide the support for the weight, absorb inpacts and have to do this hundreds of thousands of times during a wheels life. Cheap spokes build a stiff wheel that will fatigue quickly and is heavy and dull to ride. High quality spokes build a resilient, light wheel that will withstand over a million revolutions and just feels alive as you ride.

Symetrical hubs mean that one side of the wheel will have spokes at a higher tension, thus when loaded the rim will try to rotate ot one side (to the lower tension side). To counter that you need less flex from the spokes, so higher hub walls to minimise spoke length. Thus you take out the wheels resiliance and its ability to absorb shock and recover. Not so notcable if you run huge 2.5 tyres but on 1.9 XC's it will firm things up

This resilience isnt the same as a loose badly built flexible wheel, flex is bad, it detracts from steering response and will fatiue the spokes. Resiliance is the wheels ability to recover form stresses, to absorb impacts and spring back to its original shape. A nicely resilient wheels feels like a mucg lighter wheel, a light resiiant wheel is a joy to ride. It tracks well, feels precise, smooth and encourages dynamic riding and lots of air

"The Bicycle Wheel" - Jobst Brandt 11221[3rd Ed] is a brillant peice of work on wheels, a must read for any cyclist. It very clearly explains how they work (yes there is maths if you want to get into it). Trouble is once you've read it you will be itching to get out and biuld your own wheels. One of the most rewarding things you can do on a bike IMHO also very good is "A practical guide to Wheel Builing" by Roger Musson

Marin Mount Vision 2005. Hope Pro 2/Mavic XC717/DT rev. Cinders 2.1, XT, Easton 70 bars, ODI rogues, KMC Chain, various bling

Unknown · May 2007

to to cover minimoles' last comment...

Roger Musson is this guy
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/

who i posted about earlier..

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Vegeeta · May 2007

I've been back to the distributor to speak to him about why Aireal do it if it's going to produce a stiffer wheel which is a bad thing.

The other point with it is that if you build a wheel which is too flexible (specifically a problem on 29ers aparently) and it flexes the rim too much you can end up damaging the rim more.

Again, I doubt there's any actual reall proof other than heresay about what one is better.

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Futureboy · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The other point with it is that if you build a wheel which is too flexible (specifically a problem on 29ers aparently) and it flexes the rim too much you can end up damaging the rim more.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One of the plus points of a 29er is the "compliant" feel of the wheels allowing some flex. Hence the the popularity of rigid 29ers.

I've ridden a few, and some of my mates have GF Rigs etc, and i've yet to hear of any wheel problems.

Also, if that was the case, surely it would also be an issue with road wheels?

Mad Splasherwmb · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by madmole

The fronts became asymetrical so that disk breaking forces could be dealt with. ie uneven spoke lengths alow even tension in aymetrical wheels. If you have a symetrical hub on disk wheels the brake side will take far more stress<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Front hubs did become assymetric with the introduction of disc brakes, but it's got nothing to do with brake forces. It's actually for exactly the same reason as the rear. Just as the cassette forces the wheel to be dished, so does the space required for a disc mount and disc. The uneven tension is then due to the different lengths and angles of the spokes required to create a dish.

Assuming you lace both flanges the same (3 cross for example), the brake forces will be shared equally as the hub is torsionally very stiff and transfers the load along its length. Obviously you can do things to create a situation where all the brake forces go through one flange (3 cross on one side, radial on the other) but it's not recommended.

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Vegeeta · May 2007

I think if stresses were an issue the part that would be put under increased stress would be the section of the hub between the rotor mount and the flange, if anything stress at the flange itself would decrease.
Although it'd be interesting to see if that would affect the power of the brake. If it did it'd probably be neglegable anyway.

I can understand the liking of flexy wheels on rigid 29ers. But that's not to say it's a good thing from the point of view of the longevity of the wheel. I don't think that actually chainging the diameter of the hub flange by 10mm is going to have a huge effect on that.

But think of it this way, every time you allow the rim to flex, you're weakening the grain of the rim. I'd want to reduce that on my wheels personally.

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Topshelf · May 2007

Aireal have done their homework on this thing and have just approached it form a different angle to most hub makers (but not all). The idea is to have a symmetrical hub with equal length spokes and equal tension to build a more long-term relaiable wheel. Ultimate impact strength is not as great, hence why they still make standard flange width downhill hubs, but their own research (done at a local university) shows it is a minimal reduction. The increase in long-term relaibility i.e. the wheel remaingin true etc is increased significantly though.

If you look at the flange widths on American Classic road whels, Mavic factory built wheels etc they are not as wide as many others.

The bicycle wheel was never built to be flexible or compliant, a bit like a suspension bridge. 29er wheels aren't more compliant due to their size, they will run a higher tension just like road wheels to provide required stiffness in comaprison to smaller diameter wheels. 29er wheels roll better because they are larger that's what gives the ride feel.

Hub manufacturers do not make smaller flanges to build a more compliant wheel, harder use hubs have larger flanges to handle harder riding, take a look at DT Swiss hubs.

Most times flange size is smaller to reduce weight and material. XT hubs are pretty good, expecially vfm, but the bearings need regular servcing (even more regular in XTR), the spoke hole diameter is greater to make it easier for machines to lace them, this in turn means the spoke does not seat as well which means it won't last as long as it is able to move about in the hole, this is what companies like DT Swiss make spoke washers for. Higher end hubs have better fitting spoke holes which support the spoke head better and ensure a longer spoke life.

The Aireal hubs are built by a company (macquarie precision engineering) who make pars for the ESA (european space agency) rockets and satellites so their standards are as high as anyone's. They are from a part of OZ which gets as much rain, probably more snow, and just as much mud and sun as we do, they test them thoroughly with the main aim of being long-term reliable rather than the lightest or cheapest.

Someone mentioned Tune hubs earlier, the NZ distributor of Aireal dumped Tune to do Aireal because 1/3 of the Tune hubs were breaking and Tune we're getting funny about warranty. Their cassette carrier is 1/2 the weight fo Aireal's which was already as light as Aireal were willing to go, possibly why so many we're breaking.

Every high end part has it's issues, whether it is too light and therefore not strong enough, too heavy but durable, too expensive but beautifully made etc etc. Eveyr make tries to fit in somewhere, Hope have gone for low price and low weight over ultimate function but DT Swiss go for making somehting as good as possible with little care about cost.

A mate of mine bent the axle in his DT Swiss 440 rear hub on his IH Sunday, now ben waiting for a replacement for 6 months....

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futon river crossing · May 2007

I've been thinking about some new wheels for some time (since I bought my bike LOL), I think I'll probably go for:

DT Swiss 240s
Mavic 717
Sapim xray spokes
Brass nipples

From http://www.actionsports.de they are about œ310

For me this hits a quality/weight/reliability/price sweetspot

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Unknown · May 2007

Some interesting points Topshelf, but many (most) after market XT wheelsets are handbuilt. The correct spoke has as much influence here as any other wheel, but most XT laced hubs cost a quarter/third of other top end builds and will usually out last them. Open bearings run smoother and can handle more load for a given bearing size. Servicing is easy. There are many age old shimano hubs still in service.
You cannot have a symetrical hub with even spoke lengths with a dished wheel. Impossible without an offset rear triangle. Compromises have to made here. There are a few ways to go about it. Most of it is marketing bull****. The fact remains that a standard Shimano hub is about the most reliable onthe market. In a pinch I would take a 475 hub over a Hope pro 2 simply because I trust it.

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futon river crossing · May 2007

The trouble with XT hubs is that they weigh about as much as a brick! If they could shed some weight - I'd get them.

I really don't care if flanges are symmetric or assymmetric, but I trust a company like DT to get it right, their V brake hubs are symmetric, their Disc hubs are assymetric.

One thing I would say - that is avoid Alloy nipples - they break too easily - I've broken 3 so far on my currant wheels, it's not worth the minimal weight saving.

qouted from Topshelf:
"The bicycle wheel was never built to be flexible or compliant, a bit like a suspension bridge."

Suspension bridges are built to be flexible.

Also it is wrong to say that flexing metal will always change the crystalline structure of that metal. Metal alloys are designed to flex up to a certain amount, this is determined by the alloy mix, beyong this tolerance - yes the metal will begin to harden and eventully become brittle and fail. If you think about the springyness of a steel frame - this is an example.

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Topshelf · May 2007

Suspension bridges aren't built to be flexible in the general understanding of the term, would be quite funny though. The bridge needs to be elastic to a degree, it rleies on cable stiffness not flex. The bridge needs to handle stress, oscillation and strain etc but stiffness is very key hence why they have struts to stiffen the structure.

The bicycle wheel is the strongest structure known to man and relies on tension. For example a DT XR4,2 rim is rated to somehting like 4800 newtons, the spokes will be tensioned to approx 1000-1100 average so leaving plenty of capacity to deal with the loading and unloading they experience when being ridden. It is not a flexible structure in that you want the rim to move up and down and the spokes to physically compress. It can handle a load within a range, the spoke will only actually stretch a very minute amount. The aim with a bicycle wheel is to be as stiff radially and laterally as possible without the spokes being too tight. Suspension bridges work on the same principle, the struts/cables etc act like spokes in a wheel, they work under tension and are tight enough to keep the bridge stable and still but still have the capacity to handle other loads from traffic and wind etc whilst still remaining stable i.e. still.

www.topshelfcomponents.com

futon river crossing · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Topshelf

Suspension bridges aren't built to be flexible in the general understanding of the term, would be quite funny though. The bridge needs to be elastic to a degree, it rleies on cable stiffness not flex. The bridge needs to handle stress, oscillation and strain etc but stiffness is very key hence why they have struts to stiffen the structure.

The bicycle wheel is the strongest structure known to man and relies on tension. For example a DT XR4,2 rim is rated to somehting like 4800 newtons, the spokes will be tensioned to approx 1000-1100 average so leaving plenty of capacity to deal with the loading and unloading they experience when being ridden. It is not a flexible structure in that you want the rim to move up and down and the spokes to physically compress. It can handle a load within a range, the spoke will only actually stretch a very minute amount. The aim with a bicycle wheel is to be as stiff radially and laterally as possible without the spokes being too tight. Suspension bridges work on the same principle, the struts/cables etc act like spokes in a wheel, they work under tension and are tight enough to keep the bridge stable and still but still have the capacity to handle other loads from traffic and wind etc whilst still remaining stable i.e. still.

www.topshelfcomponents.com
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

a quick quote from the wikipedia:

Disadvantages compared with other bridge types

Lacking stiffness the bridge may become unusable in strong wind conditions and so require closure to traffic.
BEING FLEXIBLE in response to concentrated loads the structure is generally not used for heavy rail crossings, which concentrate the maximum "live" loading at the location of the locomotives.
Under severe wind loading, the towers exert a large torque force in the ground, and thus require expensive foundation work when building on soft ground.

Suspension bridges flex.

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Vegeeta · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by futon river crossing

quick quote from the wikipedia:

Disadvantages compared with other bridge types

Lacking stiffness the bridge may become unusable in strong wind conditions and so require closure to traffic.
BEIN FLEXIBLE in response to concentrated loads the structure is generally not used for heavy rail crossings, which concentrate the maximum "live" loading at the location of the locomotives.
Under severe wind loading, the towers exert a large torque force in the ground, and thus require expensive foundation work when building on soft ground.

Suspension bridges flex.

My Bike

http://angelafung.net/my_bike.jpg
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or in other words, if you're wheels flex a lot they're applying large amounts of torque to the hub flange via the spoke.
If it were me I'd want as much material as possible supporting my spokes if that's what's happening.

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Topshelf · May 2007

Supersonic - The Aireal hubs are symmetrical in so far as they build a wheel with equal dish, equal tension using equal length spokes using. The 'markeitng bull***t' (whcih happens to be backed up by their testing carried out by a respected Univesity in OZ) is here: http://airealaustralia.com/original/doc ... ionpdf.pdf

As for 475 hubs, they are absolutely rubbish, I work in a bike shop and absolutely loads of bikes have these hubs. They have next to no effective sealing, they continually wokr loose when usd in conjunction with disk brakes, they are heavy, the freehub doesn't last long and gioes noisy and rumbly very quickly (non-serviceable unlke many aftermarket hubs). The XT hub is a far better bit of kit though although heavy and non-serviceable freehub.

Most aftermarket XT wheels are indeed handbuilt but i was making the point that shimano tend to make their hubs with larger spoke holes so they are easier for a machine to build which most shimano hubs end up being. The loose fit you end up with means the spoke can move around more and this ultimately causes them to break at the elbow. DT Swiss make washers for this purpose though but they rarely get used.

Most mailorder handbuilt wheels I see are pretty rubbish, i.e. very uneven tension, not particulalrly true British standards say within 2mm radially and laterally, DT Swiss course teaches within 0.1mm, most builds I see mailorder are within 2mm. Loads of mailorder handbuilt wheels use cheaper ACI spokes to keep the cost down, they're not bad spokes but not as good as DT. There are reasons why some whels are cheaper than others and I sometimes wonder if the larger mailordr places use a machine to lace the whels and then hand finish them.

Cup and cone bearings are better at handling the loads of a bicycle wheel but they require more attention more regularly. If the bearings get rusty/contaminated with grit it brinels the surface and then you have to bin the hub with sealed cartridge bearing hubs you can just pop new ones in.

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Topshelf · May 2007

futon river crossing - I think we're both saying the same thing about the bridges but coming from different angles. Suspension bridges are not built to be flexy they are just inherently more flexible than other types, the flex is not necessarily a good thing whereas earlier on it was being inferred that flex in a wheel is a 'good' thing. Many of the improvements to suspension bridges over the last 100 years have been to make them stiffer so they can handle higher sidewinds etc (such as struts) and also to tune out effects of oscillation.

A spoked wheel is more flexy than a solid one and if you take into account dishing it gets potentially more flexy. However it is exceptionally strong radially given it's size and weight hence why it is so good for bicycles. Many improvements in bicycle wheels has been aimed at reducing flex and increasing stiffness i.e. crabon rims, asymmetric rims, dishless wheels, increasing spoke crossings, increasing flange diameters etc etc

www.topshelfcomponents.com

Mad Splasherwmb · May 2007

Hmmm... an interesting debate. I've been a professional engineer for 20 years and I've never heard a bicycle wheel and a suspension bridge compared as structures before. The only thing that I can see that they have in common is that the main cables and droppers of a bridge are tensile (in tension) as so are the spokes of a wheel.

A suspension bridge is flexible (for a bridge). The deck can rise and fall and sway from side to side and in doing so it can absorb energy from the loads it carries and the wind without being massively heavy. It remains stable by having natural damping (no single natural frequency that can excite the whole bridge - unlike tacoma narrows). Not sure what these struts are that are referred to as the only struts I can think of on a suspension bridge are the piers.

As for hubs, I have to agree with Topshelf about 475s being poor - they're let down by the seals (or lack of them). I also agree that XT hubs are fantastically durable, very good value for money, but ultimately a bit too heavy (who knows what M770 will be like though). As for ProIIs, time will tell. I'm probably less concerned with the life of the bearings than I am with that of the aluminium cassette carrier! Strange no-one seems to mention that and yet that's why the rear is so much lighter than the previous Hope XC rear.

George
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Vegeeta · May 2007

I had 475s on my Kona, they were definately dreadful. Imagine this though, Kona use them on their œ2400 Coilair! No wonder nobody buys them!

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Topshelf · May 2007

The use of aluminium for the cassette carrier is nothing new. You have to use the right grade of alloy but DT Swiss do it, pretty sure CK do, loads of roadie hubs use them, Aireal hubs have used them since day one. The alloy will actually work harden I'm told.

On the aireal hubs we get tiny little indents form each cog on the cassette so the first time the cassette is removed/changed it's a little tight to remove but still easy, if you then slightly file the little ridges down (with a fine file it takes less than a minute to do) then it never happens again. It happens on all alloy carriers i've seen but not known them to break, except on Tune hubs and a mates DT 440 which was due to his sram cassette breaking.

Aireal are offering a cromo carrier on their DH hubs if rider's specifically ask for it. They don't think it's needed but lots of rider's were asking for it so they decided to offer it as an option.

The alloy carrier saves a lot of weight over cromo and even ti, plus the bearings don't corrode in as they can on cromo carriers.

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Mad Splasherwmb · May 2007

Yeah, I've got an aluminium cassette carrier on my Campag road wheels and it's marked from the cassette. It won't work harden much because it will be age hardened already (a process that replicates the natural age hardening of the material but quickly).

Anyway, I'm sufficiently content with ProIIs to be considering a 2nd set as a replacement for the XT/719s. Thought red proIIs, black XM819s, black DT comps and tubeless 2.25 Nobby Nics. What d'y'all reckon?

George
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Unknown · May 2007

They'd look as pimped as my wheels. What will be happening to your old wheels?

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Mad Splasherwmb · May 2007

The XT/719s would go back to performing bombproof, rim braked duties on the Kona. It has a thankless life as a commuter, heavy tourer and winter trail hack and as such XT hubs are perfect.

George
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Unknown · May 2007

LOL, okay

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My Single Speed

Always remember to pick your Uni according to the local trails or you'll be stuck with nowhere to ride for three years!

madmole · June 2007

Folks are also mixing flex and resiliance. My wheels are resiliant NOT flexible

On my Pro2/717 set the spoks are tensioned to 105lbs tension. That means that to actually flex the wheel (ie remove all tension off of the spoke so the rim is unsupported) you need to apply a force greater than 105lbs on each spoke (thats a hell of a lot of force). As I use thin resilient spokes if I apply a large force to one spoke that force is distributed to the surounding spokes that increase their tension. Stiff wheels prevent that distribution of force and hence increase the load in individual spokes

When spokes snap, its not the increased load (ie the bump) that breaks then. Its the release of the load that increases the tension again that does it. stiff wheels can actually be poorer at dynamically handling stresses than complient wheels. Thats why butted spokes are better. they are as striong at the stressed ends but more resilient

Having said that, ALL wheels do flex a litle as they spin as the rider is normally the largest load they carry. Every revolution the rim and every spoke is unloaded and loaded again, hence all the components do eventually fatigue and will fracture. Higher quality components generally will handle more cycles than cheaper (normally stiffer) components

Brandts book has a good section on how a wheel actually works, fatigues, deforms, recovers and the stresses it handles. In short you dont want a rigid cartwheel

Marin Mount Vision 2005. Hope Pro 2/Mavic XC717/DT rev. Cinders 2.1, XT, Easton 70 bars, ODI rogues, KMC Chain, various bling

pro II's or XC hubs and XM vs XC

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