pro II's or XC hubs and XM vs XC

ddraver · May 2007

Hey guys

the first question is what is the difference between the hubs? Talking to evans (?!?) the said the only difference was the Pro II's were 20g lighter and abit noisier?!?!?, I'm a heavy rider but i don't do much extreme stuff but i'd like to do some peak district stuff this summer in s'y allah, and maybe some trail centres in the future...

Are the XC rims's gonna survive, I ride an XC hardtail, and may be looking to get a full suss at sometime in the future when work proper starts.....so this would become my lightweight baby

I know i ve asked similar questions but its tiome to put money on t table now and i'm scared....[:o)][:o)]

Insert random comment here.....
(cindercone, 02)

Unknown · May 2007

I've got a pair of merlin built xm719 on proII, they are standing up perfectly to the abuse a 97kg fatty doles out. I'd buy the xm rims for piece of mind. Bear in mind xc hubs cannot be converted to 20mm, whereas pro II can, so if you want say, pikes, you will need new hubs again!

My Scott

My Single Speed

Always remember to pick your Uni according to the local trails or you'll be stuck with nowhere to ride for three years!

guilliano · May 2007

If you can avoid getting your wheels from Evans it'd be a start as you'll pay way over the odds!

Pro II hubs have a nice sound to them, and the front hub will changeable from normal QR skewers to a 20mm bolt through more "all mountain" kind of fork. Will also be just a little smoother rolling than cheaper hubs making it easier to freewheel longer distances and build up speed.

As for rims, there are a fair few people on here with XC717 rims who have had no problems at all. Personally I went for the XM719 rims, purely cos I tend to land very heavily when bunnyhopping or jumping (but that's just a lack of skill). The XM are still lightweight so wouldn't be a problem for XC riding, but will probably take a little more abuse.

When the time comes order your wheels as a custom build from either merlin or CRC. They'll be MUCH cheaper and at least as well built, if not much better

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guilliano/

Futureboy · May 2007

XC or Pro II's are quality hubs.

I used XC for years, sold them and they are still going strong on a mates bike.

Pro II's which i use now are excellent although noisy.

As for rims, i always use 717 (or earlier variants) and have yet to bust a rim.
If you want to fit really wide tyres, then go for XM, but IMHO XC717's are more than up to the task.

Unknown · May 2007

Oh yeah, and merlin make the best wheels for mail order, also stiff make excellent wheels, but i cannot say who makes better ones because i've only bought from merlin.

My Scott

My Single Speed

Always remember to pick your Uni according to the local trails or you'll be stuck with nowhere to ride for three years!

Unknown · May 2007

I would get pro II's they are worth the extra moneya s you can change them from 20mm to qr easily and they don't drag as much as teh xc. Also you get cool colour in the [:D]

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robintawmb · May 2007

What's the maximum width tyres you would fit to an xc 717 rim ? Would 2.35 rampages be too wide ?

My upgraded Hardrock

guilliano · May 2007

I wouldn't go for anything over a 2.1 on a 17mm rim, but that's just personal opinion. If you want 2.35 tyres go for a 19mm rim as a minimum

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guilliano/

ddraver · May 2007

or am i better going with a Mavis crossrides (the œ150 ones) instead, what am i getting extra

Many Thanx guys?!

Insert random comment here.....
(cindercone, 02)

Futureboy · May 2007

Crossmax/Crossride et al are good wheels, but not every shop can work on them. If you broke a spoke or had issues with the rim, they would have to be sent to Mavic.

With regards to 717's. I have run 2.3 Continental's on them, but they come up quite narrow.
IMO, you don't need more than 2.1 for UK XC/Trail riding anyhoo.

Unknown · May 2007

I trashed my rear one and couldn't get it fixed well as no one had the right tools to do it. [:(] so i bought a mavic en321 on pro II [:D]

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madmole · May 2007

I have XC's in XM719's and Pro 2 in XC717 with triple butted revolution spokes, and am 100Kg, both are great but I can feel the difference, the Pro/717 combo feels more alive, seems to get air better and just feels tighter and more responsive.

The XC/719 were machine built on the marin when I got it, I built the Pro2/717's. neither wheel has needed anything more than a minor tweak accasionally

Both hubs take easy to get cheap sealed bearings so are dead easy to maintain (but neither of mine have ever needed any maintence

Oh and the Pro2's make a racquet and scatter ramblers 8-)

Marin Mount Vision 2005. Hope Pro 2/Mavic XC717/DT rev. Cinders 2.1, XT, Easton 70 bars, ODI rogues, KMC Chain, various bling

Mad Splasherwmb · May 2007

First off, I think ProIIs are about the same weight for a front hub but the rear is 100g lighter IIRC. Secondly, I have 717s on one set of wheels and 719s on the other and I tried my 2.25 cinders on the 717s - not recommended. If you want to use 2.35 rampages I'd recommend 19mm or 21mm rims. DT EX5.1s are 21mm and only 40g heavier than XM719s.

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Vegeeta · May 2007

Pro IIs aren't brilliant. Unless you're ever likely to want to put them on a bike with a through axle then go for something designed for purely QR as it will have much better bearings.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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Futureboy · May 2007

I think Veg's impartial view is reflected in his signature links.

[;)]

Let me know how you get on with the Aireal hubs. I wouldn't have imagined an Australian product would cope with UK gloop. I stand to be corrected though.

Vegeeta · May 2007

I wouldn't say it if I hadn't actually owned some ProIIs though, it is objective and my signature/enthusasim for the products is based around actually having had them both and the massive difference the Aireals have made.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
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Futureboy · May 2007

I'm not knocking you Veg!

What was the issue with the Pro 2's?
I run them on the geared bike and the ss and think they do the job well.

TBH, you are the only person i've heard of who isn't happy with them.
Tune on the other hand...........!

Vegeeta · May 2007

Basically if you look at the situation with what they are it makes a lot of sense.

Reason one, look at the size of the hub flanges next to something like the Aireal (I think DT are bigger too, but I can't remember).
A Hope has a flange that's somewhere around 50mm in diameter, off the top of my head, whereas the Aireals have a flange diameter of 62mm.
Basically that builds a stiffer wheel, although it's not as light as a Pro II that means you can gain the weight back on the spokes anyway because you can in theory go for a thinner spoke and shorter spokes.

Secondly, that larger flange allows much larger bearings which improves the longevety of the bearings.
Compare that to the Hope which has small flanges but then has to cope with the increased with caused by the 20mm adaptor. (Aireal do make a hub that does both BTW, but it uses even bigger bearings).
The bigger bearings also make for more stiffness.

"A lot of the weight of a hub is the bearings, larger bearings can handle higher loads for longer and, ultimately spin smoother."

Also all the end caps etc on the Aireal are made of stainless steel to resist corrosion.

Then there's the 'Symetech' aspect of the design. Basically both flanges are equally spaced from the centre line of hub creating equal length, angle & tension on the spokes. That essentially builds a better wheel because the rim is under even stress and it means you don't need so many different lengths of spoke for a wheel.

And lastly, all the bearings are Enduro P5 bearings, which are a bicycle specific bearing: www.endurobearings.com

END RANT

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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Unknown · May 2007

i use 2.4 racing ralph / nobby nic on my xc717s with a purple xc front hub and a blue pro 2 hub on my pink inbred. (yes i am mental)

Kona Humu 29er

http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/899671/

madmole · May 2007

Large Hub flanges for increased strength was a design idea that went out 10 years ago when they realised that more spoke/less hub did indeed build a more complient wheel which is actually deemed to be a good thing as it allows longer spokes and hence builds a more tolerant wheel. Look at the shimano XT hub for example since 1990 as its got smaller.

Asymetrical hubs also come in over that time. Driven by the fact that the rear wheel will always be asymetricle due to having a dirty great wodge of cogs on its side. The fronts became asymetrical so that disk breaking forces could be dealt with. ie uneven spoke lengths alow even tension in aymetrical wheels. If you have a symetrical hub on disk wheels the brake side will take far more stress

Basically symetrical, large flange hubs are 15 years out of date and an excercise in marketing to convince folks overwise

Also when its time to replace, do you want esoteric one off bearings or good quality standard bearings that all shops carry

Sorry Pro2's win, oh and they are lighter as well

Marin Mount Vision 2005. Hope Pro 2/Mavic XC717/DT rev. Cinders 2.1, XT, Easton 70 bars, ODI rogues, KMC Chain, various bling

ddraver · May 2007

what about if i'm very unlikley to switch to a 20mm hub, like ever........

given that its an XC frame with an old 80mm fork on?!

Insert random comment here.....
(cindercone, 02)

Unknown · May 2007

Whateve you do DONT BUY TUNE HUBS.Dont want them becoming to common.hehe

Charge Duster Ti

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Unknown · May 2007

hehe that the whole point of MTBing ninja trying to get the rareist thing you can [:D]

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stuartlangwilson · May 2007

DT 440s are very nice, loving the peace and quiet after many years on hopes, which are also nice hubs.

Pro II are a bit new to be really sure about bearing life, although 9 months life on one of mine was a bit rubbish.

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Vegeeta

I wouldn't say it if I hadn't actually owned some ProIIs though, it is objective and my signature/enthusasim for the products is based around actually having had them both and the massive difference the Aireals have made.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

he works for halfords... need we say ANYTHING more..

do a search on anything "hope" and you will see veg's none biased opinion about hope products.. along which is racist "disabled" comments and other closed opinion ideas..

nothing wrong with Pro 2's at all. Shimano hubs are great value and last for ages.
If your like me and a little lazy with your maintenance nothing beats the pro 2's or XC's. If you don't mind stripping and cleaning and greasing hub's then get the Shimano ones. If your going to get a bolt through fork then get the pro 2's if not get the XC version. The shimano hub is as good as the XC hub the Hope one is better for the lazy ones among us...

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Vegeeta · May 2007

Until you've actually owned some better hubs you won't realise how useless ProIIs are.

As for not being able to get the bearings, a quick trip to the local industrial estate will find ones that fit.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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Vegeeta · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by madmole

Large Hub flanges for increased strength was a design idea that went out 10 years ago when they realised that more spoke/less hub did indeed build a more complient wheel which is actually deemed to be a good thing as it allows longer spokes and hence builds a more tolerant wheel. Look at the shimano XT hub for example since 1990 as its got smaller.

Asymetrical hubs also come in over that time. Driven by the fact that the rear wheel will always be asymetricle due to having a dirty great wodge of cogs on its side. The fronts became asymetrical so that disk breaking forces could be dealt with. ie uneven spoke lengths alow even tension in aymetrical wheels. If you have a symetrical hub on disk wheels the brake side will take far more stress
Basically symetrical, large flange hubs are 15 years out of date and an excercise in marketing to convince folks overwise

Also when its time to replace, do you want esoteric one off bearings or good quality standard bearings that all shops carry

Sorry Pro2's win, oh and they are lighter as well

Marin Mount Vision 2005. Hope Pro 2/Mavic XC717/DT rev. Cinders 2.1, XT, Easton 70 bars, ODI rogues, KMC Chain, various bling
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you like flexy wheels that is...

... and surely disc wheels only became asymetric because you had to fit s disc on the same size hub.

Still, it'll be time that will tell weather the wheels last.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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Unknown · May 2007

ROTFLOL... ohh dear.. totally with madmole here.

if you need ANY convincing that he is wrong buy the wheel building guide from this fella.
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/
he basically is the Wheel guru...

i have his guide and he basically confirms nearly everything Madmole has said and also explains why he uses the hubs he builds his wheels with.. if you in any doubt e-mail him. he e-mailed me the designs for his wheel build jig, top fella very nice..

he uses 4 hubs
Cheap good hubs going to expensive great hubs. Personally i agree with his choices, the DTSwiss hubs are great but costly.. for workman like hub's get pro 2's or EVEN buy them from him i PROMISE you will have the best wheels ever. His wheel building is famous EVEN now among the pro circuit for DH racing.

pro 2's
XTR
DTSWiss
CK
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/xc_wheels.php

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Vegeeta · May 2007

Dude... I invite you to use my wheels. Like I say, time will tell on the longevity thing. But they DO roll better than PRO IIs. Which for me is the most important thing, since I don't need to worry about cost.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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Unknown · May 2007

Its difficult to feel flex in a well built heavy duty wheel. Its subtle, but spokes deforming and flexing, and supporting one another make the wheel more resilient. Large flange hubs need to be reinforced to take the extra strain and are therefore heavier. Wheel dish will always result in spokes being longer on one side than the other unless the rear triangle is offset or the hub is assymetrical.

Hope are well made, and the Pro3 is a welcome upgrade on the bearings which I felt let them down. I also agree that cartridge bearings on heavy use hubs should be larger. Open cup and cone are both smoother, take more load and last longer. For me the XT hun is the best value for money hub on the market, and I'd take XTR over hope everytime. But thats just me. We all have our reasons for hubs. Large flange is not one I would go for.

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Vegeeta · May 2007

I've no doubt my wheels are heavier for having the larger flanges.

Anyways, the only thing that'll make me want to loose the asymetric part of my hubs is a finite element analysis showing SIGNIFICANT detrimental effect that outweighs the benefits of even spoke angle/tension.

<center>A red Aireal Symetech XC rear hub! Aireal EV-2 headset! A blue Aireal Symetech hub!</center>
<center>AIREAL AUSTRALIA</center>

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pro II's or XC hubs and XM vs XC

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