This House Believes...

Mike Skinner · June 2007

That democracy is no longer the best way of Governing the UK

In the Chair: Myself (except when I'm not here)

Anyone else is welcome to sit in and either support the motion (SM), or oppose the motion (OM).

To begin

SM: The problem with democracy is the the majority hold the power. However in almost all cultures, the majority represent the un-educated, and therefore those in the worst position to decide on the running of the country.

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me_groovy · June 2007

OM: we're a mess enough as it is, if tony blair had been allowed to run amok, he'd have made things much worse.

<center><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bEavoLa

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Big Red S · June 2007

I'll go OM, since I don't think we've had anything approaching true democracy in the UK for at least 100 years, so we've no real way of knowing.

But, on the other hand, pure democracy is clearly as futile an excercise as communism.

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Mike Skinner · June 2007

SM: I can see where you are coming from BRS, technically we live in a democratic system, where a chosen party is voted to take the power of the people for the 4 years they are given.

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miggillicuddy · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

SM: The problem with democracy is the the majority hold the power. However in almost all cultures, the majority represent the un-educated, and therefore those in the worst position to decide on the running of the country.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OM: In Britain, it is not the case that the majority are un-educated

(surely, correct me if I'm wrong, but being an EMDC, the majority of our population are pretty well educated?!)

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Mike Skinner · June 2007

SM: Educated in the sense they can read, write and do basic maths yes, but not educated in the sense that they have very little idea of economics, psychology of the masses and other issues that are needed to do what is best for the people as a whole.

Most people vote for what will directly benefit themselves in the short term, not for what will benefit their communities, and therefore benefit them in the long run

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Big Red S · June 2007

Yeah, but not compared to the majority who are better educated.

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Mike Skinner · June 2007

sorry, not sure what you mean there?

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miggillicuddy · June 2007

My grasp on politics is weak[V]
...but what's a better alternative to democracy??

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neil h · June 2007

in essence a dictatorship. the country is told what to do by the ruling body. thats that.

360 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

I'll go OM, since I don't think we've had anything approaching true democracy in the UK for at least 100 years, so we've no real way of knowing.

But, on the other hand, pure democracy is clearly as futile an excercise as communism.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

by that score we've never had a democracy then surely?

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

P.s Im not doing that again.

rubber side up · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by neil h

in essence a dictatorship. the country is told what to do by the ruling body. thats that.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Surely thats pretty much whats going on anyway? or is that what your trying to say?

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neil h · June 2007

yea, thats the problem with the concept of a democracy. at the end of the day there will still be someone in a position of power which allows them to tell everyone else what to do.

although theoretically economically speaking, left to its own devices then things will sort themselves out. how ever human life being what it is, the free market will never actually work. (but i digress massively)

Mike Skinner · June 2007

no, currently we have a leadership that is elected by us.
The problem with this, is rather than doing a good job of running the country, the governement need to do a good job to keep the majority happy for 1-4 years.

A dictatorship, or kingdom (without government) or other options mean that there is no need to pander to the whims of the media and public in order to stay in power, so the ruling powers can worry about getting on with what is best for the country in the long run

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360 · June 2007

So you think a dictator with a government would be a better idea, because they'd take a longer term approach?

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

P.s Im not doing that again.

nirveous · June 2007

The thing to do with the uneducated voting, surely because not all that many people actually vote(I don't think they do anyway), the people who are voting are taking an interest, and will probably have some idea of what will really benefit them.

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360 · June 2007

you've really no idea!

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

P.s Im not doing that again.

neil h · June 2007

re: mikes comment.

the unfortunate truth is the majority that are being kept happy (certaintly by labour) are those who don't wish to work, are in single parent families or indeed wish to break the law in some way.

by keepin these groups of people happy its quite obvious how its hampering the countries developement. And to think at one point we had one of historys biggest empires...

Mike Skinner · June 2007

no, people vote for that part of the media they choose to belive. Very few (myself included) actually research the politics of the parties, not that they cound for much anyway

360, I havent quite worked out the solution yet, not sure there is one.
If there was a truelly honest and caring leader, then I think it may be the best solution, if he again had an honest advisory council, but that's pretty much dream world solutions

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360 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the unfortunate truth is the majority that are being kept happy (certaintly by labour) are those who don't wish to work, are in single parent families or indeed wish to break the law in some way.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Utter mooooooo!!.

Yes we had a big empire and so did the mongols, they're not doing to well either.

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

P.s Im not doing that again.

neil h · June 2007

yes but when we had a large empire this was under a monachy, who were doing what the (rightly or wrongly) deamed right for the country. when we moved away from this then it started to get a bit odd.

Mike Skinner · June 2007

from my minimal knowledge of the empire, human rights got in the way as much as a change of politics.
for some reason it was deemed unreasonable to go around enslaving other countries

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neil h · June 2007

how ever when we with drew from these countries its left them in a far worse state. granted this can partially be blamed on the Brittish empire. how ever at the time many of the countries benefited from being part of the Brit empire.

Mike Skinner · June 2007

except the slaves.. ;-)

but either way, I don't think we will be building a new empire any time soon so it's not overly relevant

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neil h · June 2007

but analysing the past can help when paving the way for the future.

360 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

from my minimal knowledge of the empire, human rights got in the way as much as a change of politics.
for some reason it was deemed unreasonable to go around enslaving other countries

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

actually we fought the second world war and bankrupted ourselves. Also after ww2 the general populace probably wasn't too keen on going to war again to keep a hold of bongobongostan

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

P.s Im not doing that again.

Big Red S · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 360

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Big Red S

I'll go OM, since I don't think we've had anything approaching true democracy in the UK for at least 100 years, so we've no real way of knowing.

But, on the other hand, pure democracy is clearly as futile an excercise as communism.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
by that score we've never had a democracy then surely?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That depends on how you define democracy.
It could just be a lack of records (sceptics/cynics do tend to be the first forgotten), but it does seem that it's taken until the end of the 19th century for the democratic system to truly be exploited.
I know there are a number of other reasons for it, but the major root seems to be the power of private companies, and therefore their power over politicians.
I'm not trying to claim any sort of conspiracy, but any right-minded person is going to do more of what gets them more money and less of what doesn't. If that means pandering to big business, that's what I'd expect civil servants to do (though I'd really rather they didn't).

We've now got, and have had at least since at least the beginning of this government no real opposition. There are no interesting debates. There's two major parties, each trying to be as central as possible, and another that never really seems to manage to matter. There's no point even trying to get interested in that - no party holds its position long enough to get propaganda defending it out, let alone long enough to get people to want to vote in their favour. The recent elections in France have really highlighted how far we've fallen from a leader in government - we've no real choice, and as a result we've no real voters. It seems that the large majority of people who vote only vote because they did last time, and their choice of candidate is based as much on who they voted for last time and their class as anything else.

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Big Red S · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 360

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mike Skinner

from my minimal knowledge of the empire, human rights got in the way as much as a change of politics.
for some reason it was deemed unreasonable to go around enslaving other countries
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
actually we fought the second world war and bankrupted ourselves. Also after ww2 the general populace probably wasn't too keen on going to war again to keep a hold of bongobongostan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And we, er, fought against this evil imperialist nation...

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Big Red S · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by neil h

how ever when we with drew from these countries its left them in a far worse state.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd say that's more the fault of the migrants to those countries than the British government.
Certainly African policy was to leave only on the condition that majority black rule came into force. Sure, that didn't always work (Rhodesia's a fine example), but there's not very many ways to leave a country without some degree of mess.
I don't think there's much of an argument that India, New Zealand and Australia are worse off now than they would be had they never been colonised. And the US?
Sierra Leone demonstrated at least a hint of respect for past colonies. In fact, the Commonwealth of Nations is probably the best 'support' for ex colonies any colonial power has set up.

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Drfabulous0 · June 2007

Don't forget folks that our next prime minister will not have contested any sort of election to become the leader of our country.
Is that democracy?

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Big Red S · June 2007

It's a form of it, yes.

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