UK immigration - increased salary threshold

13

Comments

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828

    Pross said:

    pep.fermi said:

    Getting back to the point, I thought there was supposed to be a points system coming? A salary threshold would be fairly reasonable in that context, and I believe both Australia and Canada have this. But not as a binary thing, unless at a much higher threshold. Same as assets I think. The point being have you got lots of money to spend, or are you going to be a drain on the state. However, you can vet points for other things, such as academic qualifications. Selected professions, having a sponsor, having a job offer, speaking French, having studied there etc.

    Where is the UK with that. Is it in place or have we not had a home secretary in post for long enough to get to that part?

    The UK needs people with LOW qualification and income. To work as carer, in agriculture, in hospitality.
    Saying "unless they're well off, or highly skilled, we don't want them" is shooting yourself in the foot.
    Plus, these are people possibly at the lower end of the skill and income spectrum, but that's a long way off from being a drain on the state.
    But that's the point of a points system. If you have skills we already have, you need a LOT of money to come. If we are short of skills, give those skills more points.
    It seems obvious really. Surely the whole point of legal immigration is to bring in the people you need. I assume there already is a list of jobs that we need so for example you couldn’t just offer a job to an engineer from India if you can fill the role locally (or offer the jobs to foreigners at a lower salary than market rate).

    On a tangent, having spent yesterday in a few care homes I can see why they have to rely on immigrant workers. It’s a scandal that most of them are getting paid minimum wage.
    The main issue in the care sector is that you can get paid more at a checkout. This does have to be looked at. I believe that it is marginally better in the special needs sector, but not a lot. There's huge churn in staff there too and it is one of the reasons we uprooted from Scotland - to be near enough to be the squeaky wheel that gets oiled.

    It's also an issue with classroom assistants - to be done well, it also needs skill, but all too often it just ends up being taking written notes for people with dyslexia (for instance) and just giving the notes to the pupil afterwards. But I guess that the box has been ticked, so it's all fine.

    In other news, Scottish education might be up a creek...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/10/scottish-schools-have-tumbled-from-top-of-the-class-this-is-what-went-wrong

    The latest comparative data on outcomes for 15-year-olds across OECD countries, published last week, shows a Scottish school system in steep decline, blighted by rising levels of social inequality. The drop in standards is the equivalent of today’s teenagers missing around 16 months of maths teaching compared with those in 2012, 18 months of science, and eight months of reading. Scottish educationalist Lindsay Paterson describes the situation as “catastrophic”.

    It is striking that the SNP was able to introduce this curriculum with little political opposition, but also little pushback from the Scottish educational establishment. Apart from the three-yearly Pisa study, there is a lack of data by which to hold politicians and civil servants accountable; Paterson in 2018 described Scottish education as “a data desert”. The Labour critique of the SNP is depressingly woolly and ungrounded in evidence-based reform that could make a difference for Scottish children.

    The SNP has dismally failed Scottish children, especially those from poorer backgrounds. Declining standards have been known about for years but, instead of serious efforts to address them, the SNP has tried to mask them with spin – last week, it claimed the data shows Scotland is “maintaining its international standing” – and shiny but unrealised manifesto pledges such as giving every schoolchild a free laptop.


    I'm sure someone started an education thread.

    👮‍♂️🚔
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615

    Pross said:

    pep.fermi said:

    Getting back to the point, I thought there was supposed to be a points system coming? A salary threshold would be fairly reasonable in that context, and I believe both Australia and Canada have this. But not as a binary thing, unless at a much higher threshold. Same as assets I think. The point being have you got lots of money to spend, or are you going to be a drain on the state. However, you can vet points for other things, such as academic qualifications. Selected professions, having a sponsor, having a job offer, speaking French, having studied there etc.

    Where is the UK with that. Is it in place or have we not had a home secretary in post for long enough to get to that part?

    The UK needs people with LOW qualification and income. To work as carer, in agriculture, in hospitality.
    Saying "unless they're well off, or highly skilled, we don't want them" is shooting yourself in the foot.
    Plus, these are people possibly at the lower end of the skill and income spectrum, but that's a long way off from being a drain on the state.
    But that's the point of a points system. If you have skills we already have, you need a LOT of money to come. If we are short of skills, give those skills more points.
    It seems obvious really. Surely the whole point of legal immigration is to bring in the people you need. I assume there already is a list of jobs that we need so for example you couldn’t just offer a job to an engineer from India if you can fill the role locally (or offer the jobs to foreigners at a lower salary than market rate).

    On a tangent, having spent yesterday in a few care homes I can see why they have to rely on immigrant workers. It’s a scandal that most of them are getting paid minimum wage.
    The main issue in the care sector is that you can get paid more at a checkout. This does have to be looked at. I believe that it is marginally better in the special needs sector, but not a lot. There's huge churn in staff there too and it is one of the reasons we uprooted from Scotland - to be near enough to be the squeaky wheel that gets oiled.

    It's also an issue with classroom assistants - to be done well, it also needs skill, but all too often it just ends up being taking written notes for people with dyslexia (for instance) and just giving the notes to the pupil afterwards. But I guess that the box has been ticked, so it's all fine.

    In other news, Scottish education might be up a creek...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/10/scottish-schools-have-tumbled-from-top-of-the-class-this-is-what-went-wrong

    The latest comparative data on outcomes for 15-year-olds across OECD countries, published last week, shows a Scottish school system in steep decline, blighted by rising levels of social inequality. The drop in standards is the equivalent of today’s teenagers missing around 16 months of maths teaching compared with those in 2012, 18 months of science, and eight months of reading. Scottish educationalist Lindsay Paterson describes the situation as “catastrophic”.

    It is striking that the SNP was able to introduce this curriculum with little political opposition, but also little pushback from the Scottish educational establishment. Apart from the three-yearly Pisa study, there is a lack of data by which to hold politicians and civil servants accountable; Paterson in 2018 described Scottish education as “a data desert”. The Labour critique of the SNP is depressingly woolly and ungrounded in evidence-based reform that could make a difference for Scottish children.

    The SNP has dismally failed Scottish children, especially those from poorer backgrounds. Declining standards have been known about for years but, instead of serious efforts to address them, the SNP has tried to mask them with spin – last week, it claimed the data shows Scotland is “maintaining its international standing” – and shiny but unrealised manifesto pledges such as giving every schoolchild a free laptop.


    It was a near one party state for at least 5 years, with virtue signalling announcements routinely unchallenged, to avoid rocking the boat on the one actual policy they had.

    The press and BBC up here were also guilty of just letting the SNP have a platform to say what they wanted unchallenged. They did not, in my view, get the same grilling that other ruling parties would get, I believe because they mastered the art of aggressive indignance and fear of future exclusion in a way that some autocrats would be impressed by.

    It seems to be coming home to people now that they were always a bunch of zealots with a very thin crust of talent at the top and not a lot beneath.

    Sound like a microcosm of anything else we know?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552

    Pross said:

    pep.fermi said:

    Getting back to the point, I thought there was supposed to be a points system coming? A salary threshold would be fairly reasonable in that context, and I believe both Australia and Canada have this. But not as a binary thing, unless at a much higher threshold. Same as assets I think. The point being have you got lots of money to spend, or are you going to be a drain on the state. However, you can vet points for other things, such as academic qualifications. Selected professions, having a sponsor, having a job offer, speaking French, having studied there etc.

    Where is the UK with that. Is it in place or have we not had a home secretary in post for long enough to get to that part?

    The UK needs people with LOW qualification and income. To work as carer, in agriculture, in hospitality.
    Saying "unless they're well off, or highly skilled, we don't want them" is shooting yourself in the foot.
    Plus, these are people possibly at the lower end of the skill and income spectrum, but that's a long way off from being a drain on the state.
    But that's the point of a points system. If you have skills we already have, you need a LOT of money to come. If we are short of skills, give those skills more points.
    It seems obvious really. Surely the whole point of legal immigration is to bring in the people you need. I assume there already is a list of jobs that we need so for example you couldn’t just offer a job to an engineer from India if you can fill the role locally (or offer the jobs to foreigners at a lower salary than market rate).

    On a tangent, having spent yesterday in a few care homes I can see why they have to rely on immigrant workers. It’s a scandal that most of them are getting paid minimum wage.
    The main issue in the care sector is that you can get paid more at a checkout. This does have to be looked at. I believe that it is marginally better in the special needs sector, but not a lot. There's huge churn in staff there too and it is one of the reasons we uprooted from Scotland - to be near enough to be the squeaky wheel that gets oiled.

    It's also an issue with classroom assistants - to be done well, it also needs skill, but all too often it just ends up being taking written notes for people with dyslexia (for instance) and just giving the notes to the pupil afterwards. But I guess that the box has been ticked, so it's all fine.

    In other news, Scottish education might be up a creek...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/10/scottish-schools-have-tumbled-from-top-of-the-class-this-is-what-went-wrong

    The latest comparative data on outcomes for 15-year-olds across OECD countries, published last week, shows a Scottish school system in steep decline, blighted by rising levels of social inequality. The drop in standards is the equivalent of today’s teenagers missing around 16 months of maths teaching compared with those in 2012, 18 months of science, and eight months of reading. Scottish educationalist Lindsay Paterson describes the situation as “catastrophic”.

    It is striking that the SNP was able to introduce this curriculum with little political opposition, but also little pushback from the Scottish educational establishment. Apart from the three-yearly Pisa study, there is a lack of data by which to hold politicians and civil servants accountable; Paterson in 2018 described Scottish education as “a data desert”. The Labour critique of the SNP is depressingly woolly and ungrounded in evidence-based reform that could make a difference for Scottish children.

    The SNP has dismally failed Scottish children, especially those from poorer backgrounds. Declining standards have been known about for years but, instead of serious efforts to address them, the SNP has tried to mask them with spin – last week, it claimed the data shows Scotland is “maintaining its international standing” – and shiny but unrealised manifesto pledges such as giving every schoolchild a free laptop.


    I'm sure someone started an education thread.

    👮‍♂️🚔
    Is that the paging Brian emoji?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Pross said:

    pep.fermi said:

    Getting back to the point, I thought there was supposed to be a points system coming? A salary threshold would be fairly reasonable in that context, and I believe both Australia and Canada have this. But not as a binary thing, unless at a much higher threshold. Same as assets I think. The point being have you got lots of money to spend, or are you going to be a drain on the state. However, you can vet points for other things, such as academic qualifications. Selected professions, having a sponsor, having a job offer, speaking French, having studied there etc.

    Where is the UK with that. Is it in place or have we not had a home secretary in post for long enough to get to that part?

    The UK needs people with LOW qualification and income. To work as carer, in agriculture, in hospitality.
    Saying "unless they're well off, or highly skilled, we don't want them" is shooting yourself in the foot.
    Plus, these are people possibly at the lower end of the skill and income spectrum, but that's a long way off from being a drain on the state.
    But that's the point of a points system. If you have skills we already have, you need a LOT of money to come. If we are short of skills, give those skills more points.
    It seems obvious really. Surely the whole point of legal immigration is to bring in the people you need. I assume there already is a list of jobs that we need so for example you couldn’t just offer a job to an engineer from India if you can fill the role locally (or offer the jobs to foreigners at a lower salary than market rate).

    On a tangent, having spent yesterday in a few care homes I can see why they have to rely on immigrant workers. It’s a scandal that most of them are getting paid minimum wage.
    The main issue in the care sector is that you can get paid more at a checkout. This does have to be looked at. I believe that it is marginally better in the special needs sector, but not a lot. There's huge churn in staff there too and it is one of the reasons we uprooted from Scotland - to be near enough to be the squeaky wheel that gets oiled.
    I don’t think it is any better in special needs to be honest. That has been my wife’s sector for 25 years. She currently works for a not for profit organisation who pay slightly above national living wage to their care workers. I think her previous place was around 50p an hour above national minimum wage. Being responsible for around 50 care staff, their training and all the paperwork require to comply with a highly regulated sector for over 20 years she was getting paid less than £30k with a very real prospect of facing criminal charges if something went wrong. It also required being on call 24 hours a day one week in 3 (far less frequent and more support in the current role). In short you’d have to be mad to choose it as a career (something she has proved to be the case by being with me for 30 years).
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615
    I sympathise. I'm married to a social worker. Whenever the shit hits the fan, the teachers and medics duck for cover and let the social worker, who was never even told about the bruises the medic ignored and the teacher reported, take the flack.

    Fortunately, she's not that sort of social worker and gets pulled in only at the periphery of that kind of fall out. But the duty rota. Urgh. Many an evening spoiled.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Are they unionised?
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615
    Care workers or social workers? The latter are with unison. Don't know about the former.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    I guess it’s a problem when they’re made up of generous people but they should probably get more militant.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087

    I guess it’s a problem when they’re made up of generous people but they should probably get more militant.

    When your role is a carer it’s not easy to walk out and leave the people you are caring for without any care.
    I think in 30 plus years of nursing I was on strike for one day and most of my colleagues choose not strike, even though there was a majority vote for strike action.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Yeah exactly.

    Probably should though.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Also the majority of people in these roles are women. They seem somewhat reticent in taking militant industrial action
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Are they unionised?

    I think in my wife’s previous place the hands on staff were encouraged to join one of the general Unions but mainly as it gave them legal support if required (which a few did following the death of one service user) but I wouldn’t say they were Unionised as they had no reps to do bargaining etc.

    The strange thing is that there were quite a few lazy ones and ‘Valleyitis’ was common with lots regularly phoning in sick (it was pretty much a guarantee that the wife would be called in to cover if on call on a Bank Holiday). There must be easier jobs they could do for the same money.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828
    webboo said:

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔

    Yebbut the private sector is always so much more efficient...
  • masjer
    masjer Posts: 2,554
    webboo said:

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔
    I thought Johnson had fixed it.

    This explains where the money goes. Typical story.

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59504521

    '65% goes on staff and 15% on running costs and maintenance - while nearly 20% goes towards servicing debt, building up investment reserves and providing a financial return to investors./i>'
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552
    The salary element used to only apply to the initial application. If it was subsequently failed, then it took longer to get indefinite leave to remain, but not refusal of the visa. The government hasn't published the details of its new proposal, so whilst I understand the concern, I suspect anyone in the country on a spouse visa will be ok.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615
    Are the Beans any relation, BB?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517

    The salary element used to only apply to the initial application. If it was subsequently failed, then it took longer to get indefinite leave to remain, but not refusal of the visa. The government hasn't published the details of its new proposal, so whilst I understand the concern, I suspect anyone in the country on a spouse visa will be ok.
    It’s more the decisions are already being made. Not everyone wants to wait for the detail.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,060
    edited December 2023
    Stevo_666 said:

    I was asked where I was from by my boss to be in my interview with my current employer as they picked up on my accent. No offence taken and as it turned out their OH lived just around the corner from me in Redcar when we were both kids. Gave us something non work related to chat about and possibly helped get me the job.

    I regularly get asked where I'm from on hols. It always feels positive as a process of "meeting of minds" for example queuing at a col marker for a photo with bike or (years ago now) supervising kids at the park etc. Oddly, most continentals think I'm Dutch or Swiss rather than English.

    At home, the most common comment I get is "You don't have a Yorkshire accent" when I tell folk I'm from Yorkshire, before explaining I don't have a Leicester accent either despite having been brought up there.

    I guess I look favourably on such exchanges as I'm ethnically pure Yorkshire as far back as the family tree has been traced and thus know I'm superior to most other people I meet.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552
    edited December 2023

    The salary element used to only apply to the initial application. If it was subsequently failed, then it took longer to get indefinite leave to remain, but not refusal of the visa. The government hasn't published the details of its new proposal, so whilst I understand the concern, I suspect anyone in the country on a spouse visa will be ok.
    It’s more the decisions are already being made. Not everyone wants to wait for the detail.
    Clearly, I'm not a fan of the proposal, but I do think it is important to report things accurately. Many families struggled to meet the £18,600 threshold*. The increase changes the numbers struggling, but does not change the rules of the game unless something else is announced.

    *I would have struggled to prove it on the income route.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552

    Are the Beans any relation, BB?

    All this time you thought I was posting under an alias.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    edited December 2023

    The salary element used to only apply to the initial application. If it was subsequently failed, then it took longer to get indefinite leave to remain, but not refusal of the visa. The government hasn't published the details of its new proposal, so whilst I understand the concern, I suspect anyone in the country on a spouse visa will be ok.
    It’s more the decisions are already being made. Not everyone wants to wait for the detail.
    Clearly, I'm not a fan of the proposal, but I do think it is important to report things accurately. Many families struggled to meet the £18,600 threshold*. The increase changes the numbers struggling, but does not change the rules of the game unless something else is announced.

    *I would have to prove it on the income route.
    Look I agree the threshold is absurd period.

    I think the messaging matters though. If today it's more than doubled, what will tomorrow bring? Why would I schelp my family over to start a life here when the authorities are making it increasingly clear they don't want me to be here?

    I spend a lot of time speaking to people who may need to relocate for a new job; the narrative around immigration matters to the attractiveness.

    For academia, most of whom are paid less than the newly proposed threshold, why would you risk it? Why accept that 5 year tenure at Oxford Uni when this is all up in the air?
  • webboo said:

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔

    Yebbut the private sector is always so much more efficient...
    Local Authorities use their buying power to screw the private care homes who bump up the prices for private residents.
  • webboo said:

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔

    Yebbut the private sector is always so much more efficient...
    Local Authorities use their buying power to screw the private care homes who bump up the prices for private residents.
  • masjer said:

    webboo said:

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔
    I thought Johnson had fixed it.

    This explains where the money goes. Typical story.

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59504521

    '65% goes on staff and 15% on running costs and maintenance - while nearly 20% goes towards servicing debt, building up investment reserves and providing a financial return to investors./i>'
    I was expecting to see "hotel" costs a lot higher than that
  • I spend a lot of time speaking to people who may need to relocate for a new job; the narrative around immigration matters to the attractiveness.

    I don't think the Tories have caught up with the post-pandemic reality that there is a competitive market for migrant labour. They still seem to think that everyone would be honoured to be allowed to work in the UK, regardless of the t&c involved.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,594

    webboo said:

    webboo said:

    When I used to visit care homes as part of role as a CPN I would get managers complaining that they couldn’t get quality staff. I would mention as has stated above why would you do it for minimum wage when you could get much more on the tills at Aldi. So therefore you are getting staff who can’t get a job there or similar.

    This is basically me to my clients most days just talking about bigger numbers.
    Yet these are the people caring for our loved ones when they need 24 hour care. Yes I know there are some fantastic staff doing it for the minimum wage. The majority of the staff looking after my MiL were great and really did care but for £1,050 a week and staff on minimum wage it is an outrage.
    I wonder who’s idea it was to privatise care homes🤔

    Yebbut the private sector is always so much more efficient...
    Local Authorities use their buying power to screw the private care homes who bump up the prices for private residents.
    Local authorities being famously flush with cash. Also, how on earth do people expect private companies to provide for the sector if they can't offer shareholders a return on investment?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition