UK immigration - increased salary threshold

pep.fermi

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-67634719

With the new rule, workers from abroad can move to the UK only if they earn 38700pa or more (up from the current 26200pa). Average UK earning is probably near 30kpa.
The new increased threshold will probably keep out many young bright smart talented ambitious University scientists from China and India.
Who will do the low-paid jobs the Brits refuse to do?

All good with politicians taking decision they know they damage their country, only in order to appease a fraction of their voters. It's the scale of the damage that is excessive....

Pross

Nice to have a new topic of discussion.

pep.fermi

@Pross
not sure if your reply was ironic. Maybe this is being discussed already in a different thread in the forum, sorry I didn't see it...

Pross

pep.fermi said:

@Pross
not sure if your reply was ironic. Maybe this is being discussed already in a different thread in the forum, sorry I didn't see it...

pep.fermi said:

@Pross
not sure if your reply was ironic. Maybe this is being discussed already in a different thread in the forum, sorry I didn't see it...

It's being discussed in the Conservative Party one and has also been raised in quite a few others. The concensus is pretty much what you've said above.

joeyhalloran

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

briantrumpet

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

To be fair, we're training doctors and nurses who are going abroad to earn more than they can in the NHS.

pep.fermi

briantrumpet said:

To be fair, we're training doctors and nurses who are going abroad to earn more than they can in the NHS.

UK is richer than most countries around the globe, so although yes there are healthcare workers trained here going abroad, without data at hand I would imagine the net flow is into the UK, not out.
In fact, I would imagine by a huge margin.

surrey_commuter

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

kingstongraham

surrey_commuter said:

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

Is it true that it leaves those countries with insufficient staff?

pep.fermi

surrey_commuter said:

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

Extremely interesting point.
no idea, here my random guesses:
1) some people they're too bothered with their own immediate things (cost of living, latest football results, growing up their children, booking the next holiday) to care about what's right or wrong.
2) some people are simply to dumb to realize such policy "let's keep the poor out" goes against their interest.
3) people "against" immigration are simply much louder than those realizing and admitting the UK actually benefits from it

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

Because it's great value for the UK, and the people they take on benefit too?

I thought you were a free marketer? Bring on lower friction labour markets.

surrey_commuter

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

Is it true that it leaves those countries with insufficient staff?

I can not believe that it is an optimal use of resources in the likes of the Philippines to train nurses for the NHS.

At the very least we could pay to expand the training

pep.fermi

kingstongraham said:

Is it true that it leaves those countries with insufficient staff?

I have no data of course, so I don't know...
...but I doubt Greece or Rumania have a problem of having too many Dr / nurses / carers / fruit pickers working there.

Reminds me when I hear "having a carer from East Europe here is a win-win: the family has a worker they couldn't otherwise afford, and the worker earns so much more than in their own country". Although this person makes a conscious decision, such statement ignores the facts such workers (very likely) leaves back home her own growing children and elderly parents. So although the net outcome is possibly still a win, it's not as positive as some see it...

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

Is it true that it leaves those countries with insufficient staff?

I can not believe that it is an optimal use of resources in the likes of the Philippines to train nurses for the NHS.

At the very least we could pay to expand the training

Why? Philipines produces an excess of nurses but does not provide the financial security the UK does.

It's win win. I don't really understand your logic here. Since when were you so autarkic?

pep.fermi

rick_chasey said:

Philipines produces an excess of nurses

Does it?

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

joeyhalloran said:

It is a bit laughable making your policy of providing social services based on poaching care workers from countries that have spent money training their population and leaving them with insufficient care themselves whilst also pursuing a policy of making them feel particularly unwelcome here.

I have never understood why this does not bother more people

Is it true that it leaves those countries with insufficient staff?

I can not believe that it is an optimal use of resources in the likes of the Philippines to train nurses for the NHS.

At the very least we could pay to expand the training

The Philippines exports nurses. The export is all the remittances the country receives.

TheBigBean

Pre-covid remittances were around 10% of Philippines GDP.

photonic69

pep.fermi said:

briantrumpet said:

To be fair, we're training doctors and nurses who are going abroad to earn more than they can in the NHS.

UK is richer than most countries around the globe, so although yes there are healthcare workers trained here going abroad, without data at hand I would imagine the net flow is into the UK, not out.
In fact, I would imagine by a huge margin.

I don't think so. By a very small poll of my own experience - taking my NHS dentist as an example. Pre Brexit/COVID there was a very steady churn of dentists from Greece, Spain, Hungary, India and China. So regular I barely saw the same one twice. Now it's mostly grumpy, white UK nationals probably because they haven't/can't get into private practice and make the megabucks.

pblakeney

photonic69 said:

pep.fermi said:

briantrumpet said:

To be fair, we're training doctors and nurses who are going abroad to earn more than they can in the NHS.

UK is richer than most countries around the globe, so although yes there are healthcare workers trained here going abroad, without data at hand I would imagine the net flow is into the UK, not out.
In fact, I would imagine by a huge margin.

I don't think so. By a very small poll of my own experience - taking my NHS dentist as an example. Pre Brexit/COVID there was a very steady churn of dentists from Greece, Spain, Hungary, India and China. So regular I barely saw the same one twice. Now it's mostly grumpy, white UK nationals probably because they haven't/can't get into private practice and make the megabucks.

In my experience (post Brexit) they are generally young NHS trained and doing their required stint before going private.

rick_chasey

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/01/how-to-convince-sceptics-of-the-value-of-immigration

joeyhalloran

rick_chasey said:

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/01/how-to-convince-sceptics-of-the-value-of-immigration

I think this needs to be read by someone in politics with an ounce of political ability and a backbone. The shitstorm we are in now is because (well, many things but one reason) politicians have essentially been deceiving people about the UKs reliance on immigration while demonising them. It requires a good politician to chart a course for people to comea round to the idea of immigration as a good thing. Much easier to just lie, stay in power, and let the country decline.

katani

pep.fermi said:

kingstongraham said:

Is it true that it leaves those countries with insufficient staff?

such statement ignores the facts such workers (very likely) leaves back home her own growing children and elderly parents. So although the net outcome is possibly still a win, it's not as positive as some see it...

Plus you are constantly being reminded who you are as soon as you open your mouth in public. The British are obsessed with absolutely having to confirm which country you are from, why you came to theirs, if you are going back "home" for Christmas, Easter, summer holidays, planning to ever move back etc. etc. . I mean complete strangers do this to you. Reminds me the hospital nurse who was questioning me exactly that in the presence of a doctor and two other nurses, just as I was laid on a surgical table about to be getting operated. Can you imagine being more rude. And they weren't doing me a favour as the treatment was being paid for entirely by my private health insurance.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest, as I have a thick skin and if I am arsed to engage, I answer with some self-deprecating humour, which always shuts those halfwits up. I do, however, know quite a few families who moved back "home" because they couldn't bear it anymore and decided they preferred to live poorer lifes, but be happier among their own folk... only to find out that their former workplace roles had now been filled with immigrants from even poorer countries i.e. mainly Ukrainians, but also from the Middle East or Azerbaijan, happy to work longer hours for lower wages.
So on their way back to the UK on the next available plane.

pangolin

Slightly odd rant. Certainly sounds like it bothers you a tad despite your claims otherwise.

Having lived in a couple of other countries I can assure you that asking where you are "from" is not a uniquely British trait.

Pross

pangolin said:

Slightly odd rant. Certainly sounds like it bothers you a tad despite your claims otherwise.

Heading lived in a couple of other countries I can assure you that asking where you are "from" is not a uniquely British trait.

It’s not just foreigners either. If you haven’t got a local accent people will often ask where are from. It’s generally just curiosity / making conversation. A bit different if you have a local accent but are non-white and someone asks where you are from ‘originally’ I would suggest.

rick_chasey

It’s never meant positively in my experience

Pross

rick_chasey said:

It’s never meant positively in my experience

What, irrespective of skin colour?

The first time I met a friend of mine who is French I asked where in France he was from, same with a South African friend. A northerner joined my running club and I asked him. Yet if any of them had been black I probably wouldn’t have asked or would have clarified with ‘which part of France / SA / northern England are you from’ to avoid it being a reference to their skin colour. I regularly get asked where I’m from when outside of Wales and people hear my accent.

Stevo_666

I was asked where I was from by my boss to be in my interview with my current employer as they picked up on my accent. No offence taken and as it turned out their OH lived just around the corner from me in Redcar when we were both kids. Gave us something non work related to chat about and possibly helped get me the job.

ugo.santalucia

I would reverse the policy and only issue visas for those earning up to 40k. This idea that the best and the brightest get the top jobs is old fashioned and flawed. I bet if we compare how bright (and useful to society) is the average City broker as compared to the average nurse there will be some surprises.
Incidentally, the jobs that Brits don’t want are the ones under 40k…

Edit… I knew 3 city brokers, none of them had a degree and they came from professional sport or the army, without much in the way of education… their usp were to be able to deal with the pressure and being good in a team

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

It’s never meant positively in my experience

You must get people genuinely interested in the Netherlands, surely? I used to get asked where I. Australia I was from all the time when I lived in Canada.

Er... England.

It's just a conversation opener, in that context.

rick_chasey

I don’t have an accent so it doesn’t come up.

Mother on the other hand.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

I don’t have an accent so it doesn’t come up.

Mother on the other hand.

What a strange comment.
Everyone has an accent.