La Vuelta 2023: Stage 16:- Liencres Playa - Bejes, 120km ***Spoilers***
Comments
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Roglic and kuss played to wait for Jonas earlier in the vuelta to keep him higher on GC ... I would be annoyed as kuss but what you going to do ."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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Haven't seen many then ... cunego giro .... jaja vueltahypster said:This is the most ridiculous GT I have ever seen.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm1 -
Olano's Vuelta win was wild.mididoctors said:
Haven't seen many then ... cunego giro .... jaja vueltahypster said:This is the most ridiculous GT I have ever seen.
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What was ridiculous about the Cunego Giro?mididoctors said:
Haven't seen many then ... cunego giro .... jaja vueltahypster said:This is the most ridiculous GT I have ever seen.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Horner’s Vueltamididoctors said:
Haven't seen many then ... cunego giro .... jaja vueltahypster said:This is the most ridiculous GT I have ever seen.
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All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
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You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Maybe the plan was for rivals to burn themselves up by closing Vingegaard allowing Roglic to counter for the win towards the end in typical Roglic style and Kuss just following, but no one made an effort to close Vingegaard's attack?!PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
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If you are looking at strategy then maybe the plan was to get the opposition to burn a few matches before the big day tomorrow.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.2 -
There is no opposition. Hopefully it does become a free for all between the Jumbo riders as that would liven things up but unfortunately I can’t see it happening.pblakeney said:If you are looking at strategy then maybe the plan was to get the opposition to burn a few matches before the big day tomorrow.
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Well, there you have it. They were just cementing the top 3.Pross said:
There is no opposition. Hopefully it does become a free for all between the Jumbo riders as that would liven things up but unfortunately I can’t see it happening.pblakeney said:If you are looking at strategy then maybe the plan was to get the opposition to burn a few matches before the big day tomorrow.
Kuss has this unless he collapses. Team turmoil if they challenge him without a collapse.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
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Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
My view is that Roglic was most concerned with the gap between Vingegaard and Roglic.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
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The way the gap initially opened up, it did look like Jonas might take red. In the end Kuss lost 75 seconds to Jonas. It puts Jonas in a great position to do the same again and then he will take red.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
Jumbo closing out the podium was never in doubt before yesterday anyway, baring a crash or bad mechanical.0 -
Did look like Vingegaard riding to win the race.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1
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As well he should.kingstongraham said:
My view is that Roglic was most concerned with the gap between Vingegaard and Roglic.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Roglic must know he can't win this now?kingstongraham said:
My view is that Roglic was most concerned with the gap between Vingegaard and Roglic.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
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Doesn't seem to think like that, does he?TheBigBean said:
Roglic must know he can't win this now?kingstongraham said:
My view is that Roglic was most concerned with the gap between Vingegaard and Roglic.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
Kuss had to hold back to help him in 2020 on Angliru, but I think its likely they'll both be watching Vingegaard disappear again.1 -
So do we think the Jumbo management have said they can ride for themselves as long as they don't damage the overall position or have they allocated a leader with the others possibly going rogue? They are in a low risk position really but it may affect team morale in either situation.0
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The problem Kuss has is that he can't do anything to defend his lead if one of the other two attack as it will be seen as him chasing his own team down. He needs to be the first to have a dig if he wants to win it for himself as his only other option is to follow any counter attacks which so far haven't been successful.1
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After yesterday, if he's got the legs, he should just go after them.Pross said:The problem Kuss has is that he can't do anything to defend his lead if one of the other two attack as it will be seen as him chasing his own team down. He needs to be the first to have a dig if he wants to win it for himself as his only other option is to follow any counter attacks which so far haven't been successful.
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I always thought Vingegaard had the option to win the race if he wanted to, but I assumed he would let Kuss win on the basis that action would be rewarded in the years to come.kingstongraham said:
Doesn't seem to think like that, does he?TheBigBean said:
Roglic must know he can't win this now?kingstongraham said:
My view is that Roglic was most concerned with the gap between Vingegaard and Roglic.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
Kuss had to hold back to help him in 2020 on Angliru, but I think its likely they'll both be watching Vingegaard disappear again.
For example, I can remember Contador gifting a Giro stage to Tiralongo, and then the following year Tiralongo, who was riding on a different team, buried himself to help Contador win the Vuelta.
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That's the big if question. Kuss can give Vingegaard 29" and Roglic 1'33" minus bonuses. Anything more will be informative.Pross said:The problem Kuss has is that he can't do anything to defend his lead if one of the other two attack as it will be seen as him chasing his own team down. He needs to be the first to have a dig if he wants to win it for himself as his only other option is to follow any counter attacks which so far haven't been successful.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
To get the 1-2-3, none of them needs to attack any of the others. And if they are all still together at the front, we all know Roglic will nick the stages from anyone.1
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As well he should, were it not for the fact that it means that neither Kuss or Roglic can.pblakeney said:
As well he should.kingstongraham said:
My view is that Roglic was most concerned with the gap between Vingegaard and Roglic.pblakeney said:
Ah. I suppose it depends on your perspective. At no point did I think Vingegaard was going into Red. Close maybe, but not quite. Gap 3rd to 4th increased, Kuss didn't lose much.kingstongraham said:
No, I meant Vingegaard. He was flying away gaining time with nobody coming out of the group until Roglic decided that he needed to attack and limit everyone's losses.pblakeney said:
You are going to have to explain that one. I guess you meant Kuss, but even then it was only a few seconds. Vingegaard made time on everyone.kingstongraham said:
All he did was initiate the attack that brought them all closer to Vingegaard. It made no sense for the team.mididoctors said:
. Attacking in reverse order of GC closes up your guys and distances everyone else in reverse of the jersey ...it makes sense but you have to get away. ...Jonas is having a great 3 weekkingstongraham said:Roglic's attack was the weird one.
Beyond getting a podium 1,2,3, none of us here know what is Jumbo's actual race plan, or if it changed when Kuss what appeared to gain an unassailable lead. For all we know, this was always the team's plan, although if what Kuss said post race regarding Roglic is accurate, it casts doubt.
Vingegaard attacked so early, one wonders if it was a preemptive strike.
It's very handy for making huge time gains, knowing that your team mates are then left in the bunch, unable to respond.
Like I said yesterday, a clearer picture will emerge today."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Roglic and Vingegaard have something which may be "once in a lifetime" chances for them to earn two GT wins in a single year.
I'm all for etiquette and such like, but unless Jonas went all in yesterday and can't manage anything else I'd be amazed if he can't find 29 seconds on an unsupported Kuss *if he wants to*.
And if I was him, I'd be trading off that status as a 2xGT winner in a season vs the impact on his relationship with one of the best climbing domestiques in the peloton. Can he afford for Kuss' heart not to be in it next time he needs a bit of assistance whilst trying to beat Pogacar?2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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I don't think he needs the assistance to beat Pogacar in normal conditions. But he may need it for a stage next year after winning the Giro to complete the triple."Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0
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He hasn't needed it so far, but there's no guarantee that both Pog and Ving will be at the same levels in future years as they have been over the last 2.2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
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Does it have to be a calculation purely in terms of self interest?larkim said:Roglic and Vingegaard have something which may be "once in a lifetime" chances for them to earn two GT wins in a single year.
I'm all for etiquette and such like, but unless Jonas went all in yesterday and can't manage anything else I'd be amazed if he can't find 29 seconds on an unsupported Kuss *if he wants to*.
And if I was him, I'd be trading off that status as a 2xGT winner in a season vs the impact on his relationship with one of the best climbing domestiques in the peloton. Can he afford for Kuss' heart not to be in it next time he needs a bit of assistance whilst trying to beat Pogacar?
I'd be thinking it'd be nice to win this but I can live without it if it means Sep gets a grand tour on his palmares.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1
