Pre Ride Fuel

roscoe

I tend to ride/train very early in the morning, usually around 0500 during the week, always fasted as I don't feel like eating anything after just getting up.

Rides are usually an hour in duration, sometimes hard, sometimes easy.

Thinking recently about my fitness and recovery and the fact I'm no spring chicken at 55, it's time to overhaul my diet/nutrition. Am I wasting my time by going out fasted every time ( i do the same for running). Would something small like a banana make a difference? Sports drink? I don't feel like i'm running out of energy, but then, I wouldn't know the difference.

I need something that can be eaten 20-30 minutes before i set off.

Post ride, if i bother, i have SIS Rego. More often than not I'll have nothing until breakfast an hour after getting back.

webboo

I would have thought that if you have had a decent meal the evening before you would be fine for an hour, no matter how hard you ride. However isn’t there a time frame in which you need to consume carbs for the optimum recovery.

mrb123

I usually have a glass of chocolate milk as soon as I get back from early morning rides. It's meant to have a decent ratio of carbs vs protein to serve as a recovery drink.

joeyhalloran

I'd say you would start seeing improvements if you focus on this a bit. For harder workouts an energy drink would be good. Its not just the energy requirements of doing the workout but also making sure your body has what it needs as soon as you're asking it to recover. You could try just taking energy drink out with you any time you're doing hard workouts and see where that gets you.

ugo.santalucia

Can you not have a couple of eggs after the ride, instead of the SIS Rego?
This is the list of ingredients, it is frightening.

Carbohydrate mix (46%) (Maltodextrin (from Maize), Fructose), Protein (46%) (Soy Protein Isolate), Electrolytes (3%) (Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Lactate, Magnesium Oxide), Natural Flavourings, L-leucine, Emulsifier (Soy Lecithin), Thickener (Xanthan Gum), Colour (Beetroot Red), Vitamins & Minerals (Ascorbic Acid, Nicotinamide, Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate, Ferric Pyrophosphate, Zinc Sulphate, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Thiamin Mononitrate, Calcium Citrate, Folic Acid, Potassium Iodide, Biotin, Vitamin D3, Cyanocobalamin), Sweetener (Sucralose)

roscoe

To be fair, that's a very good point. That's a bit of a chemical sh*tstorm

shirley_basso

If you read what those chemicals actually are, it's not quite so frightening. I know you're an engineer, but just because something has a scary sounding name doesn't mean it's actually bad for you.

ugo.santalucia

shirley_basso said:

If you read what those chemicals actually are, it's not quite so frightening. I know you're an engineer, but just because something has a scary sounding name doesn't mean it's actually bad for you.

Some are, some aren't: the emulsifier and the thickener have been strongly linked to gut health problems, there are some studies on sucralose too. Maltodextrine is not harmless. Interestingly, xanthan gum is basically the same gloopy substance you find when you clean the washing machine filter

wallace_and_gromit

roscoe said:

I tend to ride/train very early in the morning, usually around 0500 during the week, always fasted as I don't feel like eating anything after just getting up.

Rides are usually an hour in duration, sometimes hard, sometimes easy.

Thinking recently about my fitness and recovery and the fact I'm no spring chicken at 55, it's time to overhaul my diet/nutrition. Am I wasting my time by going out fasted every time ( i do the same for running). Would something small like a banana make a difference? Sports drink? I don't feel like i'm running out of energy, but then, I wouldn't know the difference.

I need something that can be eaten 20-30 minutes before i set off.

Post ride, if i bother, i have SIS Rego. More often than not I'll have nothing until breakfast an hour after getting back.

My understanding - from when my kids started swimming at silly o'clock in the morning - is that in terms of fuelling for an early 60-90 minute session, then last night's dinner is sufficient in terms of glycogen in the muscles, so long as you've eaten rice or pasta etc.

The key is to eat a small something e.g. half a slice of toast, a bit of cereal, drink of Nesquick etc. Being "small" it doesn't feel like you've eaten anything so you don't get stomach ache as you might training at that time a short while after a typical sized breakfast. But it triggers the reaction in the body that makes the glycogen stores more readily accessible, so you don't have the "running on empty" feeling.

I find the "eat a little" vs "eat nothing" is worth circa 15s per km when running first thing and I generally feel better having eaten a little.

roscoe

wallace_and_gromit said:

roscoe said:

I tend to ride/train very early in the morning, usually around 0500 during the week, always fasted as I don't feel like eating anything after just getting up.

Rides are usually an hour in duration, sometimes hard, sometimes easy.

Thinking recently about my fitness and recovery and the fact I'm no spring chicken at 55, it's time to overhaul my diet/nutrition. Am I wasting my time by going out fasted every time ( i do the same for running). Would something small like a banana make a difference? Sports drink? I don't feel like i'm running out of energy, but then, I wouldn't know the difference.

I need something that can be eaten 20-30 minutes before i set off.

Post ride, if i bother, i have SIS Rego. More often than not I'll have nothing until breakfast an hour after getting back.

My understanding - from when my kids started swimming at silly o'clock in the morning - is that in terms of fuelling for an early 60-90 minute session, then last night's dinner is sufficient in terms of glycogen in the muscles, so long as you've eaten rice or pasta etc.

The key is to eat a small something e.g. half a slice of toast, a bit of cereal, drink of Nesquick etc. Being "small" it doesn't feel like you've eaten anything so you don't get stomach ache as you might training at that time a short while after a typical sized breakfast. But it triggers the reaction in the body that makes the glycogen stores more readily accessible, so you don't have the "running on empty" feeling.

I find the "eat a little" vs "eat nothing" is worth circa 15s per km when running first thing and I generally feel better having eaten a little.

Good shout, thanks

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I know none of us are pro's, but the general approach now tends to be that keeping topped up day in day out if you are training regularly is more important, which even us amateurs can follow. So, as above, a good meal the night before is probably more than enough if you are training first thing.

I also get the impression that fasted rides are no longer the done thing. Pro cycling seems to be heading towards high carb intake, on and off the bike. So I guess a little bit of extra bread or pasta for us mere mortals is no bad thing either!

mr.b-campag

wallace_and_gromit said:

roscoe said:

My understanding - from when my kids started swimming at silly o'clock in the morning - is that in terms of fuelling for an early 60-90 minute session, then last night's dinner is sufficient in terms of glycogen in the muscles, so long as you've eaten rice or pasta etc.

The key is to eat a small something e.g. half a slice of toast, a bit of cereal, drink of Nesquick etc. Being "small" it doesn't feel like you've eaten anything so you don't get stomach ache as you might training at that time a short while after a typical sized breakfast. But it triggers the reaction in the body that makes the glycogen stores more readily accessible, so you don't have the "running on empty" feeling.

I find the "eat a little" vs "eat nothing" is worth circa 15s per km when running first thing and I generally feel better having eaten a little.

I think the research suggests simply having some sugar in your mouth helps - so even if you swill some sugary water around and then spit it out you'll get a benefit. No need for the OP to do that ofc - the suggestions here sound sensible. Need to try them myself before I go for an evening run before dinner...

mr.b-campag

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I know none of us are pro's, but the general approach now tends to be that keeping topped up day in day out if you are training regularly is more important, which even us amateurs can follow. So, as above, a good meal the night before is probably more than enough if you are training first thing.

I also get the impression that fasted rides are no longer the done thing. Pro cycling seems to be heading towards high carb intake, on and off the bike. So I guess a little bit of extra bread or pasta for us mere mortals is no bad thing either!

I think up to 90 minutes fasted is still considered beneficial, but not super long rides (although I've been able to ride for four hours fasted with no obvious ill effects). If we have to be fully fuelled all the time I'm not sure how we're supposed to lose any weight (which I need to do)...

joeyhalloran

It might be beneficial, it's just it's less beneficial than getting all the gains from a hard session.

Don't diet on the bike, loose weight off it.

The dinner the night before is perfectly able to get you through a tough session, it's just that with adding carbs onboard your body will be able to work harder, burn more calories and recover faster. It's not that you can't do it with the adding carbs though.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I think up to 90 minutes fasted is still considered beneficial, but not super long rides (although I've been able to ride for four hours fasted with no obvious ill effects)

Interesting, I guess the shorter fasted ride is logical in terms of managing to complete the session.

Four hours is quite a duration. I know personally I would implode at that length of time. What kind of intensity is that, I would assume it is nothing much beyond low Zone 2?

imposter2.0

roscoe said:

I don't feel like i'm running out of energy, but then, I wouldn't know the difference.

If you were running out of energy, it would be obvious to you - so I suspect you aren't.

As others have said, you should still have plenty of fuel in the tank from the night before - and it's only 60 minutes anyway. If you're asking 'would eating something make a difference?' - what kind of difference would you be expecting?

roscoe

imposter2.0 said:

roscoe said:

I don't feel like i'm running out of energy, but then, I wouldn't know the difference.

If you were running out of energy, it would be obvious to you - so I suspect you aren't.

As others have said, you should still have plenty of fuel in the tank from the night before - and it's only 60 minutes anyway. If you're asking 'would eating something make a difference?' - what kind of difference would you be expecting?

Quicker recovery, maintain a higher average speed, don't slow down on hills! Some of that will be down to specific training as well.

joeyhalloran

Why don't you give it a go? 2.2kg of High 5 drink is £18. Assuming two hard sessions a week that's about 5 months. If after 5 months of trying it you see no benefit you've only wasted £18.

webboo

roscoe said:

imposter2.0 said:

roscoe said:

I don't feel like i'm running out of energy, but then, I wouldn't know the difference.

If you were running out of energy, it would be obvious to you - so I suspect you aren't.

As others have said, you should still have plenty of fuel in the tank from the night before - and it's only 60 minutes anyway. If you're asking 'would eating something make a difference?' - what kind of difference would you be expecting?

Quicker recovery, maintain a higher average speed, don't slow down on hills! Some of that will be down to specific training as well.

So if you do your early morning training ride mid morning after having had breakfast 2 hours earlier. Do you maintain a higher average speed and don’t slow down on the hills.
If you not tried this you probably need to do this as it will tell you whether it’s fuel or training you need.

mr.b-campag

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I think up to 90 minutes fasted is still considered beneficial, but not super long rides (although I've been able to ride for four hours fasted with no obvious ill effects)

Interesting, I guess the shorter fasted ride is logical in terms of managing to complete the session.

Four hours is quite a duration. I know personally I would implode at that length of time. What kind of intensity is that, I would assume it is nothing much beyond low Zone 2?

Well I guess it depends whose zone definitions we are talking about. But yes mostly long slow stuff. Saying that I've done some club rides that have also involved some slightly harder efforts to get over steeper hills and not fall miles behind. I do time restricted eating so just do the ride and then have my first meal at lunchtime when I get back as normal. I do carry something just in case though and might have that sometime in the last hour if I feel like I really need it (eg a banana).

I would have said the same as you not that long ago, but I think it is the time restricted eating that has allowed me to do it, rather than incrementally pushing the time out for fasted rides. I've simply got used to being comfortable with not eating for reasonably long periods of eating (inc. the odd 24hr fast).

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Good point. I use Coggan power zones, so I would class low zone 2 as 55-60% of ftp.

You are probably right, if I worked at it, likely that I would get used to it, given time.

I think that as I ride so much and seem fairly efficient (i.e. able to ride long durations at mid intensity) that I am reluctant to do fasted rides. I am also very lean so I think keeping on top of my calories and eating plenty is worthwhile for me.

Inteteresting to hear other perspectives though.

webboo

Similar to yourself MG I feel I’m pretty efficient in that I can ride for fours or 100K plus on only my breakfast at an average heart rate of 75/80%. I guess riding and training for 40 years is of some benefit.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Definitely Webboo, years of riding like that is a core part of building aerobic fitness. I think anyone who can ride 100km at those kind of efforts has a pretty decent engine built up.

mr.b-campag

Well I'm not really advocating it - I just kinda fell into it as I wanted to limit my eating window for health reasons. But I think it does demonstrate how you can improve your metabolic flexibility (noting n=1 etc). But I can well believe it doesn't give you the most bang for your buck in terms of training (unless perhaps you are planning on doing some sort of ultra event).