Steel bike frames
MidlandsGrimpeur2
Posts: 2,127
I have been mulling over a new winter/training bike for a while. Currently on the Caad12 which is now well used (and has a seized seatpost which I cannot get out as you may have seen from my other thread).
I have been thinking about a custom rim brake steel frame for a while (or off the peg if something decent is available). Partly this is just because I like the idea of having something made for me and I know steel is still relatively well priced compared to custom Ti or carbon options.
The main issue holding me back is frame weight. I have had two steel frame bikes (spesh allez and a ridley cross bike). Both perfectly decent bikes but budget end and quite heavy. I ride a lot of hills and tend to be out of the saddle and in big gears, this is where I notice a heavy bike as it can feel as though you are dragging it up the climbs.
Essentially, would there be a big difference in weight and responsiveness between a cheaper budget steel bike such as my allez and a lighter higher end frame, or is the difference going to be minimal?
I have been thinking about a custom rim brake steel frame for a while (or off the peg if something decent is available). Partly this is just because I like the idea of having something made for me and I know steel is still relatively well priced compared to custom Ti or carbon options.
The main issue holding me back is frame weight. I have had two steel frame bikes (spesh allez and a ridley cross bike). Both perfectly decent bikes but budget end and quite heavy. I ride a lot of hills and tend to be out of the saddle and in big gears, this is where I notice a heavy bike as it can feel as though you are dragging it up the climbs.
Essentially, would there be a big difference in weight and responsiveness between a cheaper budget steel bike such as my allez and a lighter higher end frame, or is the difference going to be minimal?
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My thoughts. I don't understand the principle of a steel winter bike when non-corroding materials are available. I wouldn't buy a rim brake winter bike these days. Your choice.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.3 -
There are many different types of steel, if it's a winter bike a stainless steel like 953 might be good, but that's really expensive. Why a custom built frame, are you strangely proportioned? I get the appeal of having something special just because you can, but you might be able to get an off the shelf frame in a non-corroding material that fits you as well as a custom within your budget.
This is rather nice...
https://www.saffronframeworks.com/build/stainless-steel-road-bike/
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Fair points PB. I am not too worried about corrosion as my other steel frames were fine and I keep stuff well maintained so that will hopefully reduce the possibility.
I am not sold on discs for a road bike. I have them on my gravel bike and the old Ridley above was DB also. I just prefer the feel of a rim brake bike and find well set up caliper brakes do just as good a job (on a road bike at least). Plus the ease of maintenance is a factor.
Yes, custom just because it would be nice to be honest Veronese. I am not averse to an off the peg frame though. Condor have a very nice looking Acciaio in stock but at 2.4kg with fork it seems fairly hefty, even for steel.
The Saffron are lovely but he has a 12 month waiting list. Not a deal breaker as I could have one for next year and the Caad will certainly keep going for another winter at least.
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fwiw my xcr frame is about 1700g, it's custom but equivalent standard size probably would be 60-ish
xcr and 953 are similar strength/weight, both better than the titanium typically used for bikes, main difference is xcr is seamless tubing
i ride mine year round, weighs about 7kgmy bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny1 -
Cheers SG. Do you mind if I ask who made your frame?0
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I did the steel bike for winter thing, but it was spongy tank and I ended up hating it after a few years. So I built up a second hand Emonda ALR frame with spare bits and ended up with a pretty light machine that's so much fun to ride that it's still being run during the good months! IMO an alu frame with a carbon post and 28/30mm tyres is the way to go for winter thrashers - rim or disc.1
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Yeah, feel of the bike and ride quality is my main concern GD. I know what to expect with alu and carbon but much less so with steel, hence I am a bit reluctant. Looking at Condor I notice they do a nice looking alu frame as well which could just be a straight swap for the Caad. I basically have a full groupset made up of spares and wheels so getting the frame and building it up would be easy enough,0
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I have a Mason Definition (Alu) which i've used as a winter bike for a number of years. I also have a Fairlight Strael (853 mainly) which I bought as more of an anything other than winter bike.
I am now selling my Mason and plan to use the Fairlight as my winter bike. The ride quality of the Fairlight is fantastic as is the geometry and I'd highly recommend one for winter/training/racing/summer or whatever you fancy. The reviews of this frame are spot on and I very much doubt you would be disappointed with it.
The newer Strael's are treated for ant-corrosion protection - I believe they did this for the v2 frames onwards and they phosphate dip them.
My Strael 3 with Campagnolo Chorus weighs in around the 8.5kg mark so it really isn't all that heavy.
If you want a Mason Definition in 56cm then let me know....
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My Strael is a v2 and has quite a bit of internal rust, they said it was coated but I've now coated mine.
Do you a 56r? My Strael is 56r and it's so twitchy and sketchy I can't ride it one handed. Ive just bought a angle adjust headset to try and fix the handling. My other bikes and my previous Scott Foil Im happy riding no handed to put jackets, arm and leg warmers on etc...
Lots of reviews saying the handling is great so I'm not sure if it's just my bike or something to do with me and the Strael (as I've never had anything similar with my previous ~15-20 bikes)1 -
Yes - 56R - I used a rust prevention spray internally as well and had no issues to date.
No twitchiness either.0 -
I still have a desire to build up a Genesis Volare 931.0
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it's a cinelli xcr, the original version with bb30 and no paint, i got it in 2010, still happyMidlandsGrimpeur2 said:Cheers SG. Do you mind if I ask who made your frame?
in terms of feel, it certainly isn't flexy, no brake rub standing/sprinting, just a nice ride, reviews often say 'zingy'
current rim brake version is this...
https://www.cinelli-milano.com/collections/xcr/products/xcr-frame-set
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny2 -
blimey that's nicesungod said:
it's a cinelli xcr, the original version with bb30 and no paint, i got it in 2010, still happyMidlandsGrimpeur2 said:Cheers SG. Do you mind if I ask who made your frame?
in terms of feel, it certainly isn't flexy, no brake rub standing/sprinting, just a nice ride, reviews often say 'zingy'
current rim brake version is this...
https://www.cinelli-milano.com/collections/xcr/products/xcr-frame-set1 -
I've been lusting after that since he first posted a picture of it, looks like it's about my size toojoeyhalloran said:
blimey that's nicesungod said:
it's a cinelli xcr, the original version with bb30 and no paint, i got it in 2010, still happyMidlandsGrimpeur2 said:Cheers SG. Do you mind if I ask who made your frame?
in terms of feel, it certainly isn't flexy, no brake rub standing/sprinting, just a nice ride, reviews often say 'zingy'
current rim brake version is this...
https://www.cinelli-milano.com/collections/xcr/products/xcr-frame-set
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it's a cinelli xcr, the original version with bb30 and no paint, i got it in 2010, still happy
That is a lovely bike SG. I'd had a look at the Nemo Tig as well, but have to say the XCR looks a fair bit nicer than that, although it is bit pricier.0 -
I am leaning slightly back towards just getting another alu frame. The Condor Italia RC looks nice and I can also pick up a new Trek Emonda alr for about £850 online. The only slight drawback with the Emonda is the brake calipers are DM only so I would need to buy new brakes for it and DM options are fairly limited and quite pricey, but I guess the frame plus the calipers would still come in under the cost of a steel frame.0
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There are titanium builders in China which will build you a custom frame for not too much money. Check out Chinacycling on youtube, who did a review of one of them about a year ago.
Below is the company:
https://waltlytitanium.com1 -
Then you'll have a spare set of brakes and you'll be looking for a frame to fit them onto...MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:I am leaning slightly back towards just getting another alu frame. The Condor Italia RC looks nice and I can also pick up a new Trek Emonda alr for about £850 online. The only slight drawback with the Emonda is the brake calipers are DM only so I would need to buy new brakes for it and DM options are fairly limited and quite pricey, but I guess the frame plus the calipers would still come in under the cost of a steel frame.
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Then you'll have a spare set of brakes and you'll be looking for a frame to fit them onto...
I can see it happening already
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I have a Genesis Equilibrium 725 with both a steel and carbon fork, Shimano 105 groupset and Hunt 4 season wheels.
The ride quality is excellent and it feels smooth and planted, but it is a bit of a pig to get up a hill (see my other post).
I reckon if you can afford it (and if I’d invested in disc brakes), a Strael would be amazing - although expensive.
Genesis stopped making the Volare in rim brake sadly.
Otherwise, I know someone who might be selling a nice Equilibrium frame…1 -
...a bit of a marmite addendum.
I always want mounts for full guards on a wet weather bike.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
I must confess that choosing a rim brake bike for winter seems a little too 'dyed-in-the-wool', and a steel one at that, but whatever tickles your pickle, as BR's Jack would say.
Speaking of which, he has an All City which he raves about. Try also Condor, Mercian, or maybe a custom builder who isn't some over-priced bearded hipster, e.g. Argos in Bristol. Rourke, even.
It's just a hill. Get over it.1 -
...and if you're now thinking of alloy, there must be ten million Ribble audax frames available, the old blue one.
On a more serious note, if one of your gripes with Discs is maintenance, have you considered cable-to-hydraulic hybrids like the TRP Hr-Rd? I've used those and they're pretty good.
And for alloy, try Paul Milne's shop - go to his website, prices are cheaper than on FleaBay. They look like rebranded Ridleys to me.
It's just a hill. Get over it.1 -
Try also Condor, Mercian, or maybe a custom builder who isn't some over-priced bearded hipster, e.g. Argos in Bristol. Rourke, even
Cheers. I am leaning heavily towards Condor now. Lived in London for years so I know a little bit about their frames having been in there a fair few times.
My choice is either the alu Italia RC or the steel Super Acciaio. I am in London next month for a few days so I am going to stop in and look at both frames.
Discs is part maintenance, but also having ridden them on the road with gravel/cross bikes, I just don't like them on a 'road' bike. I find they flex and rub when out of the saddle and the brake power is no better than well matched rim brake combos. If I felt they offered better performance I would switch to them.0 -
My alu GT Grade used to have rear disc rub problems that probably stemmed from poor alignment of the mounts - it didn't seem to matter what I did it kept coming back. Loved the bike so bought a carbon one, swapped all the gear over and have not had a problem front or rear. Front is 15mm t/a but rear is QR.
I've got a road disc bike with t/a front and rear and had no issues with rub. I think the thru-axle approach gives a stiffer platform to minimise the flex.
Titanium adds about 500g over carbon, and discs add a bit less than 500g over rim once taking into account the differences in frame and wheels. Steel must add a good 500g more, possibly more like 1Kg.
Clearance for larger tyres and guards will most likely require long-drop calipers if going rim brake, which have more flex etc.
I'd agree that I have just as much power and sharper bite with my rim brake set up, but if I was looking for a winter steed then discs would be high on the list - no maintenance, little wear, less mess, supports the tyre and guard choices.
If you still don't want carbon but could face discs the try a Planet X Hurricane - ti frame, guard mounts, discs, choice of gears - and you can probably get frame set only for your own build but they never seem as good a value buy.0 -
Sorry, what? I'd love to see some evidence of that. No difference in the frame weights now, and disc calipers and rotors aren't that heavy. 300g, perhaps. If you're comparing like with like - which is hard, admittedly.me-109 said:discs add a bit less than 500g over rim
It's just a hill. Get over it.0 -
105 R7000 (rim) is 2453g apparently.
105 R7020 (disc) is 2478g.
https://ccache.cc/blogs/newsroom/2019-road-groupset-weight-comparison- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
My 2016 super six evo hi mod ultegra was weighed as 6.9kg in the review the 2021 super six evo hi mod ultegra admitedly is generation on frame design and has some aero shaping was reviewed at 7.89kg0
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2016...completely different bike, different tech, different stage of development.jdee84 said:My 2016 super six evo hi mod ultegra was weighed as 6.9kg in the review the 2021 super six evo hi mod ultegra admitedly is generation on frame design and has some aero shaping was reviewed at 7.89kg
It's just a hill. Get over it.0 -
I didn't read all the posts due to time constraints, but you didn't mention what your budget was; if you want a custom-built steel bike, and you want one that is lightweight take a gander at Rodriguez Outlaw, the frames are built in America.
The Outlaw comes in 4 flavors, starting at $3,600, and goes all the way up to the RL which will set you back about $11,000! But it only weighs 13.5 pounds. The next most expensive one is the SL it weighs under 15 pounds but costs $11,000. They don't say how much the less expensive ones weigh, you would have to email them for that information.
https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html#specs
Of course, if you want something with fancy lugs and the weight of the bike is not a concern there is always Rivendell, I think his frames come out of Taiwan and they're not custom anymore, and they're not horribly expensive either but look like they should be.
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