Bought a Propel and nfeel a bit "meh"

super_davo

A poorly set up rim brake will also not work, same as a poorly set up discs. Different things to set up poorly & different ways to look after them. Not really easier or harder once you've got over the learning curve.

But let's face it, all development on rim brakes & rim brake bikes has stopped, so you can either learn how to maintain them, or you can slowly morph into the sort of person that loves lugged steel frame bikes, down tube shifters, quill stems etc. (or a slightly more modern equivalent that thinks peak bike was in 2015 and everything went downhill since)

The actual stopping bit isn't that relevant, it's that now bikes are completely designed around disc brakes, and as a result, both the bikes and the brakes work much better for it.

joeyhalloran

I agree and I have no idea why emotions do run high. Why do some people feel so strongly about pushing their choices on to others? I just ride the bikes I want to ride, and let others do the same.

First.Aspect

super_davo said:

A poorly set up rim brake will also not work, same as a poorly set up discs. Different things to set up poorly & different ways to look after them. Not really easier or harder once you've got over the learning curve.

But let's face it, all development on rim brakes & rim brake bikes has stopped, so you can either learn how to maintain them, or you can slowly morph into the sort of person that loves lugged steel frame bikes, down tube shifters, quill stems etc. (or a slightly more modern equivalent that thinks peak bike was in 2015 and everything went downhill since)

The actual stopping bit isn't that relevant, it's that now bikes are completely designed around disc brakes, and as a result, both the bikes and the brakes work much better for it.

Yeah the mechanics are a headache but arent really the problem. My main gripe is that you fundamentally can't fix the problem that having to transmit braking force from the tip of the fork leg causes, i.e. overly stiff forks and wheels.

Mind you, the whole industry went down the stiffer is better rabbit hole years ago, and is now putting comfort - which means flex of some sort - back in other places.

Fwiw same thing happened in sculling, where they make boats that are fast despite being pointlessly stiff, not because of how stiff they are.

rwoofer

Never had a problem bleeding brakes unless that rear brake has particularly complicated routing. Bedding discs in, on the other hand, is a complete nightmare. Some bikes work straightaway after fitting new discs and pads, others just don't and continue to howl throughtout their lifespan. It is the randomness that gets me.

First.Aspect

rwoofer said:

Never had a problem bleeding brakes unless that rear brake has particularly complicated routing. Bedding discs in, on the other hand, is a complete nightmare. Some bikes work straightaway after fitting new discs and pads, others just don't and continue to howl throughtout their lifespan. It is the randomness that gets me.

Precisely.

trevor.hall12

Really can't help yourself.

davebradswmb

super_davo said:

But let's face it, all development on rim brakes & rim brake bikes has stopped, so you can either learn how to maintain them, or you can slowly morph into the sort of person that loves lugged steel frame bikes, down tube shifters, quill stems etc. (or a slightly more modern equivalent that thinks peak bike was in 2015 and everything went downhill since)

The actual stopping bit isn't that relevant, it's that now bikes are completely designed around disc brakes, and as a result, both the bikes and the brakes work much better for it.

It is this that is why I and other get so heated about the rim vs disc brake debate. It's not that we are against disc brakes as such, it's that we feel that rim brakes are being unfairly maligned in order to push disc brakes onto the consumer, the result of which is that sales of rim brakes may decline to the point where the main manufacturers will cease to invest in them making it increasingly difficult to get quality calipers and brake blocks forcing us to change to discs even though we know them to be heavy, complicated and expensive when compared to rim brakes, while offering little benefit.

pblakeney

I would add that rim brakes have reached the point where further development is not required. That is a problem for industry where they have to sell "new" stuff.

First.Aspect

trevor.hall12 said:

Really can't help yourself.

davep1

lookatme said:

Not feeling as meh as I was.

Took it out today and managed 22 miles at an average of 20.5mph with traffic - so its ok. Tyre change has def helped. I reckon a wheel set may see more improvement.

Its a very reach over and duck down bike but I think that is working for me. I have probably been too upright for too long.

I was glad to read that, seeing as I have had my Propel for 8 years now, and still love riding it! I did an Everesting on it when it was 3 months old, I've had 2 sets of Ultegra cranks delaminate, on my 3rd set of wheels, but it has been a fantastic purchase. I've done just under 40,000 km on it.

DeVlaeminck

My take is the industry has shot itself in the foot by contributing to making bikes more expensive and more complicated than they need to be.

The result is fewer people doing their own spannering and building that real interest in bikes and fewer people upgrading their bike because they really want that S-Works or whatever because it now costs the same as their car did 5 years ago.

shirley_basso

Rim brakes, threaded BB, Di2, tubed 25mm tyres.

As fast as anything else and almost idiot proof, unless you crash and write off a derailleur.

First.Aspect

shirley_basso said:

Rim brakes, threaded BB, Di2, tubed 25mm tyres.

As fast as anything else and almost idiot proof, unless you crash and write off a derailleur.

And if you crash and write off a derailleur it is already getting difficult to replace Di2. I just about managed to update 2015 Di2 to 2020 without replacing the whole groupset. Not sure how long the old etube standard will be available or whether rim brake brifters will still be available.

The lack of back compatibility and the rate of part redundancy is as bad as it has ever been.

The industry is going all in on complete bikes, as far as I can tell.

I kind of hope the Chinese groupset market fills the gap and punches a hole in the almost duopoly that has built up. Consumers have had the piss taken out of them for a long time now...

shirley_basso

Eeek. I have a 6870 system with R8050 rear mech.

eBay has quite a few parts on it, but not that many. I don't really want to be storing a load of quite £££ spare Di2 parts just in case.

First.Aspect

Might be worth getting rim brake brifters, just in case.

shirley_basso

Mine is a di2-only frameset as well, which is particularly bleak so can't even downgrade to cables if I wanted.

Still in stock at Merlin, so no need to panic yet!

shirley_basso

Also - just saw a Colnago C60 in normal size with Dura Ace 9000 Di2, rim brakes, nothing wrong with it - but no wheels - £1,040 on ebay. Yikes.

joeyhalloran

I really dislike the move to more and more complete and integrated bikes. I've never seen a bike in my size with the right stem length, handlebar width and crank length so buying a new bike will always mean then spending more money to make it fit! I like upgrading parts (including frame) of my bike as I go but it's harder and harder to do these days.

First.Aspect

joeyhalloran said:

I really dislike the move to more and more complete and integrated bikes. I've never seen a bike in my size with the right stem length, handlebar width and crank length so buying a new bike will always mean then spending more money to make it fit! I like upgrading parts (including frame) of my bike as I go but it's harder and harder to do these days.

Couldn't agree more.

First.Aspect

shirley_basso said:

Also - just saw a Colnago C60 in normal size with Dura Ace 9000 Di2, rim brakes, nothing wrong with it - but no wheels - £1,040 on ebay. Yikes.

Wow. Worth it just for the di2.

super_davo

When I bought my last bike I went for the base spec Ultegra Di2 model, knowing I would take the wheels, bars and stem and replace with ones of my size and choice, with all removed parts sold as "new other" on eBay.

So you can work around it, even though I way prefer the Ribble method where you can tailor the parts to your fit from the off.

joeyhalloran

Indeed though with many modern bikes this means faffing around with integrated cables and a full rebleed of the hydraulics, all just to ride the thing.

Tashman

joeyhalloran said:

I really dislike the move to more and more complete and integrated bikes. I've never seen a bike in my size with the right stem length, handlebar width and crank length so buying a new bike will always mean then spending more money to make it fit! I like upgrading parts (including frame) of my bike as I go but it's harder and harder to do these days.

This was the primary reason I went for a Ribble as I could specify the details. I realise it's not as convenient for the seller to churn out models, especially in stores, but with much more emphasis on fit now it makes sense.

shirley_basso

Next giveaway:

Bianchi Specialissima, size 57. Ultegra di2 6800, rim brake, campag Shamal wheels

(a few scuffs which warrant investigating)

£1250

neeb

First.Aspect said:

super_davo said:

veronese68 said:

I should start charging for fettling other people's disc brakes. Don't have the problems mentioned, bleeding is really not difficult. Keep pedalling the myths and I'll be able to charge more 😁

Yep, bought a kit from Amazon for about a tenner, plus a litre of LHM mineral oil for a similar amount, and I reckon it's about a ten minute job now. But schoosh

It still takes infinitely longer than bleeding rim brakes.

Fwiw I guarantee I was an earlier adopter than anyone on this forum. I have had disc brakes on a commuting road (okay, cross) bike since 2008. I've had mechanical, semi mechanical and hydraulic. When they are good, you don't notice them, just like rim brakes. When they are bad, they barely work at all and they are very fickle in that respect. Whereas I know exactly when and where my rim brakes will be hopeless - and that's when it's wet.

I have multiple bikes. Including a rim brake one I keep in Devon and ride 2 weeks a year. I get it out, it performs like it did the last time. I do that with a hydraulic disc brake bike I've not used in a few months, it'll be lethal for a week, and then totally awesome again.

For the weight, complexity and wrecking the ride quality, in my experience its just not worth it.

Glad you've seen the light First.Aspect, I seem to remember debating brakes with you about 5 or 10 years ago when you were in new-adopter disc-brake-fan mode!

I continue to resist discs, which has the advantage that my two best 5 - 10 year old rim brake bikes just continue to get better as I spend a small fraction of the money I might have spent on new bikes upgrading various things over the years. They're now both kitted out with 11sp Campagnolo EPS, lovely wheels, aero and/or weenie cockpits, EE brakes etc.

Cooincidentally we now have a Giant shop in my neighbourhood and I popped in to look at the latest bikes. Suprised how similar the tube shapes and overall look of the latest Propel is to my circa 2013 Scott Foil. But it's massively heavier and just doesn't have any "aura" about it that screams "next generation". It basically just looks like my 10 year old bike except with disk brakes...

Also... Now, I know this is a little subjective and unscientific, but I tapped the downtube with the back of a knuckle and it has that slightly dull sound you associate with lower-end carbon, rather than the sharp ping that my HMX Foil has. And Giant say they use exactly the same frame across the range? Hmm...

pblakeney

neeb said:

... And Giant say they use exactly the same frame across the range? Hmm...

In that case a savvy buyer would surely get a base model frame and spec up. 🤔

neeb

pblakeney said:

neeb said:

... And Giant say they use exactly the same frame across the range? Hmm...

In that case a savvy buyer would surely get a base model frame and spec up. 🤔

Or avoid completely? Not that much point in finding a slightly cheaper way to own an overpriced bike..

pblakeney

neeb said:

pblakeney said:

neeb said:

... And Giant say they use exactly the same frame across the range? Hmm...

In that case a savvy buyer would surely get a base model frame and spec up. 🤔

Or avoid completely? Not that much point in finding a slightly cheaper way to own an overpriced bike..

Let me rephrase my point.
If that is the case then nobody in their right mind would buy the top level Giant frame.