Milan San Remo 2023 **Spoilers**

1235

Comments

  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905

    Great photo

    Kinda wish Pidcock had been there to make up a 5


    Would Pidcock have the raw watts for a climb like the Poggio?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    phreak said:

    Great photo

    Kinda wish Pidcock had been there to make up a 5


    Would Pidcock have the raw watts for a climb like the Poggio?
    I reckon so.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Watched the final again and MvdP really licks WvA’s plate clean in the chase up the Poggio.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905
    edited March 2023

    phreak said:

    Great photo

    Kinda wish Pidcock had been there to make up a 5


    Would Pidcock have the raw watts for a climb like the Poggio?
    I reckon so.
    He's a good 15kg lighter than WvA, MvdP and Ganna, and even Pogacar is about 8kg heavier. Because the climb is pretty flat I'd have thought absolute power numbers would be more important and by reckoning he would probably be the lightest ever winner of the race were he to be victorious.

    *edit, Bettini was actually the same weight as Pidcock, but with suitably huge respect to him, when he won the race in 2003 he beat the likes of Cipollini, not riders of the calibre of MvdP, Pogacar and WvA. I'd say Pidcock would have a good chance of beating the current crop of sprinters, but they're not his main opposition.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,776

    phreak said:

    Great photo

    Kinda wish Pidcock had been there to make up a 5


    Would Pidcock have the raw watts for a climb like the Poggio?
    I reckon so.
    .
    One more might have made it too tactical and they all just look at each other

    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,608
    Not sure anyone has the raw watts to hang with MvdP when he goes thermobiblical...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,147
    edited March 2023
    mrb123 said:

    Not sure anyone has the raw watts to hang with MvdP when he goes thermobiblical...

    He may stay close enough to catch him on the descent though. His descending two years ago having never been to the Poggio was insane.

    Edit: Let's also remember that Ganna is a teammate
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,923
    It's odd that, with all the horsepower at MVDPs disposal, WVA is considered the one able to take on the 'pure' sprinters?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,147
    edited March 2023

    It's odd that, with all the horsepower at MVDPs disposal, WVA is considered the one able to take on the 'pure' sprinters?

    I'm sure that MvdP could as well, but it seems like he doesn't want to. I remember Boonen knocked the bunch sprints on head. He really seems like someone who is only interested in a handful of big races and can't be bothered with the rest.

    He reminds me a bit of Andy Schleck - a rider with the family history and all the genetics but isn't particularly into it. They'll just do the big races they want to and live their life.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    He might have just dropped them all with his own super powered attack. But then again he wasn’t there so we will never know.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,923

    Watched the final again and MvdP really licks WvA’s plate clean in the chase up the Poggio.

    Just rewatching highlights now.

    WVA had a poor Poggio.

    He's out of position going into the climb, gets back on Pog's wheel when Bahrain take it up, then - and I can't see how it happens - seems to get boxed in when Wellen's goes and is about 20 lengths back. He closes that gap then Pog attacks and he brings MvdP up to him.

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,147
    As I've said before, WVA is a reactive rider, not a proactive one. You can guarantee that he will chase attacks, but he won't make them. It's the Jumbo style, keep it tight and conservative, bet on the sprint. Roglic is the same - time trials and bonuses..
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,147
    edited March 2023
    I know one of you drew a penis on the Poggio and if whoever did it doesn't own up, they'll be no ice cream for any of you.


    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    edited March 2023
    RichN95. said:

    As I've said before, WVA is a reactive rider, not a proactive one. You can guarantee that he will chase attacks, but he won't make them. It's the Jumbo style, keep it tight and conservative, bet on the sprint. Roglic is the same - time trials and bonuses..

    Is it not more that he has never had to have the tactical nous as the TT & sprint combo works a charm usually
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,147

    RichN95. said:

    As I've said before, WVA is a reactive rider, not a proactive one. You can guarantee that he will chase attacks, but he won't make them. It's the Jumbo style, keep it tight and conservative, bet on the sprint. Roglic is the same - time trials and bonuses..

    Is it not more that he has never had to have the tactical nous as the TT & sprint combo works a charm usually

    It's all down to tactics. TTs are straightforward. Sprints for him are about picking a wheel. No making the race. I think Jumbo are a very conservative team. It's cost them big races but they are evolving (last year's Tour for example).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    RichN95. said:

    As I've said before, WVA is a reactive rider, not a proactive one. You can guarantee that he will chase attacks, but he won't make them. It's the Jumbo style, keep it tight and conservative, bet on the sprint. Roglic is the same - time trials and bonuses..

    We all forgetting that stage in last year's TDF?
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,334
    edited March 2023
    @RichN95. is probably right in principle, but he was quite proactive at last years TdF on more than just that stage. Maybe his issue is rather that he races one way when MvdP isn't there (or not in form) and another way when he is (or another legit threat of which WVA has very few for his objectives)?

    Doesn't he mostly win fairly at will when MvdP isn't there and pretty much mostly (always) loses to MvdP when he is?! He has had other break away type solo victories in classics beyond that TdF stage.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,095
    If you think Jumbo-Visma are a conservative team tactically, then you obviously don't watch a lot of cycling. They definitely play to their strengths, which is normal, but they are tactically more innovative than pretty much every other WT team.

    WVA was playing to his strengths on Saturday, in that if that group of four arrived at the finish together, then he would've been the favourite to win a sprint. He made a mistake in not jumping on MVDP when he attacked, seeing as he was third in line and in the best place to react, but given how he struggled to hang on to Pogacar and Ganna, I think he just didn't have the legs to do so.

    What I find more interesting, and which has barely been commented on here, is how MVDP has matured as a rider. He no longer races like a junior and has become much more calculating in his efforts, he showed this at Flanders last year and again on Saturday.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552
    The interesting thing for me is that no matter what any other riders had done, MvDP would have won. That's not usually the case with MSR.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905
    m.r.m. said:

    @RichN95. is probably right in principle, but he was quite proactive at last years TdF on more than just that stage. Maybe his issue is rather that he races one way when MvdP isn't there (or not in form) and another way when he is (or another legit threat of which WVA has very few for his objectives)?

    Doesn't he mostly win fairly at will when MvdP isn't there and pretty much mostly (always) loses to MvdP when he is?! He has had other break away type solo victories in classics beyond that TdF stage.

    Their head to head in 1-day races is 15-9 in favour of MvdP (or 12-7 in his favour if you strip out chippers)

    https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider_vs_rider.php?type=onedayraces&filter=Filter&id1=mathieu-van-der-poel&id2=wout-van-aert&s=same-race-results
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,915
    andyp said:

    If you think Jumbo-Visma are a conservative team tactically, then you obviously don't watch a lot of cycling. They definitely play to their strengths, which is normal, but they are tactically more innovative than pretty much every other WT team.

    WVA was playing to his strengths on Saturday, in that if that group of four arrived at the finish together, then he would've been the favourite to win a sprint. He made a mistake in not jumping on MVDP when he attacked, seeing as he was third in line and in the best place to react, but given how he struggled to hang on to Pogacar and Ganna, I think he just didn't have the legs to do so.

    What I find more interesting, and which has barely been commented on here, is how MVDP has matured as a rider. He no longer races like a junior and has become much more calculating in his efforts, he showed this at Flanders last year and again on Saturday.

    Not sure how often WvA has beaten MvdP in a head to head sprint.
    My gut feeling is that MvdP beats him more often than not.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,905
    andyp said:

    If you think Jumbo-Visma are a conservative team tactically, then you obviously don't watch a lot of cycling. They definitely play to their strengths, which is normal, but they are tactically more innovative than pretty much every other WT team.

    WVA was playing to his strengths on Saturday, in that if that group of four arrived at the finish together, then he would've been the favourite to win a sprint. He made a mistake in not jumping on MVDP when he attacked, seeing as he was third in line and in the best place to react, but given how he struggled to hang on to Pogacar and Ganna, I think he just didn't have the legs to do so.

    What I find more interesting, and which has barely been commented on here, is how MVDP has matured as a rider. He no longer races like a junior and has become much more calculating in his efforts, he showed this at Flanders last year and again on Saturday.

    Really? In the sprint for 2nd last year, he came 8th, with Pogacar and MvdP both beating him.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    This was the first one for more than two years that either of them had actually won a one day race they both started, though.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,334
    edited March 2023
    andyp said:

    He made a mistake in not jumping on MVDP when he attacked, seeing as he was third in line and in the best place to react, but given how he struggled to hang on to Pogacar and Ganna, I think he just didn't have the legs to do so.


    Judging by this photo, only MvdP wasn't over the limit at the end of the Poggio. WVA struggled to close the small gap to Ganna and was spent by the end. MvdP was able to ride WVA's wheel all the way and then counter over the top. WVA wasn't able to jump on MvdP's wheel when he went. It wasn't a (conservative) decision.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,334
    phreak said:

    andyp said:

    If you think Jumbo-Visma are a conservative team tactically, then you obviously don't watch a lot of cycling. They definitely play to their strengths, which is normal, but they are tactically more innovative than pretty much every other WT team.

    WVA was playing to his strengths on Saturday, in that if that group of four arrived at the finish together, then he would've been the favourite to win a sprint. He made a mistake in not jumping on MVDP when he attacked, seeing as he was third in line and in the best place to react, but given how he struggled to hang on to Pogacar and Ganna, I think he just didn't have the legs to do so.

    What I find more interesting, and which has barely been commented on here, is how MVDP has matured as a rider. He no longer races like a junior and has become much more calculating in his efforts, he showed this at Flanders last year and again on Saturday.

    Really? In the sprint for 2nd last year, he came 8th, with Pogacar and MvdP both beating him.
    If I remember correctly, he wasn't really trying by that time.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,436

    This was the first one for more than two years that either of them had actually won a one day race they both started, though.

    It does feel like they tended to mark each other out quite often. Maybe having a genuine third contender in Pog means they have to stop simply watching each other.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 6,915
    GCN Show have a fantastic clip of the change in body language between the top 3 when WvA gets up off the sofa for the podium presentation. (It's very early in this week's show)
    Stony silence whilst he's there, then MvdP and Ganna straight into looking like really good mates! :D
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,095

    GCN Show have a fantastic clip of the change in body language between the top 3 when WvA gets up off the sofa for the podium presentation. (It's very early in this week's show)
    Stony silence whilst he's there, then MvdP and Ganna straight into looking like really good mates! :D

    For those that haven't seen it:

  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,729
    That does look a bit awkward
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    Looks like a bit of fun for the cameras to me.