look mum, no profits

ugo.santalucia

closed down, the Archetype of cycling cafes… the coolest place to be dressed in lycra… is it the end of an era or a one-off due to post Covid depression/recession/work from home etc…?

me-109

Who?

ugo.santalucia

Look Mum, No Hands

Dorset_Boy

News was unexpected given they have been the lead name on one of the business website packagers (Go Daddy?) adverts over the last 6 weeks or so.
Seems a shame.

First.Aspect

Not my neck of the woods, but is the issue that it was cool rather than good? Or that it was SO cycling focused that it catered to a tiny market? Or that it needed space (and expense) for bike maintenance that was not consistent with profits from catering, and vice versa? Or that you are only going to get a lot of custom two days a week?

For me there's no such thing as a "cycling cafe" and nor should there be. Instead, cafes that are happy to receive a lot of cyclists.

Like here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551738-d10397313-Reviews-Lanterne_Rouge-Gifford_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Or here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551901-d8512689-Reviews-Humbie_Hub-Humbie_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Both of which seem to have made it through covid. And both of which are full of cyclists on a Sunday, some of whom are not wearing this season's Rapha collection or there to network.

ugo.santalucia

First.Aspect said:

Not my neck of the woods, but is the issue that it was cool rather than good? Or that it was SO cycling focused that it catered to a tiny market? Or that it needed space (and expense) for bike maintenance that was not consistent with profits from catering, and vice versa? Or that you are only going to get a lot of custom two days a week?

For me there's no such thing as a "cycling cafe" and nor should there be. Instead, cafes that are happy to receive a lot of cyclists.

Like here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551738-d10397313-Reviews-Lanterne_Rouge-Gifford_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Or here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551901-d8512689-Reviews-Humbie_Hub-Humbie_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Both of which seem to have made it through covid. And both of which are full of cyclists on a Sunday, some of whom are not wearing this season's Rapha collection or to network.

centrally located in London, so trading mostly during the week, but surely Saturdays too.
It seems the problem was a mix of high costs and lower revenues post pandemic, as fewer people head to the offices. Still surprising

webboo

Someone posted on another thread that they were not surprised it had gone bust. They were of the opinion that it was soulless and not very inviting although they thought it might have been ok when there were races on.
I did buy the missus a set of their Tour de France knickers, yellow, green and mountain jersey colours.
I don’t think she even took them out of the box 😂

pblakeney

webboo said:

Someone posted on another thread that they were not surprised it had gone bust. They were of the opinion that it was soulless and not very inviting although they thought it might have been ok when there were races on.
...

That'll have been me. Apart from cycling memorabilia and a repair section I saw no reason to go. Coffee wasn't anything special and there was no atmosphere. I only went once.

First.Aspect

I don't know - its in the Venn diagram where of where two low margin businesses overlap isn't it? Local bike shop and cafe. Just possibly it was a bad idea in the first place.

daniel_b

What a shame - visited there several times when I was in London on training courses, once during the Giro I think it was, but all pre-covid.

Very welcoming atmosphere, nice decor, friendly staff, and very decent food for the money - it is London after all, but I was also on expenses ;-)

Been around a good while I think, sad to see it's demise.
Workshop was there as well iirc.

At one point they filmed 'The Cycle Show' there, must be 10 or so years ago?

Dorset_Boy

First.Aspect said:

I don't know - its in the Venn diagram where of where two low margin businesses overlap isn't it? Local bike shop and cafe. Just possibly it was a bad idea in the first place.

Given it opened in April 2010 that's more than a little unfair.

ugo.santalucia

First.Aspect said:

I don't know - its in the Venn diagram where of where two low margin businesses overlap isn't it? Local bike shop and cafe. Just possibly it was a bad idea in the first place.

Aren't all activities with premises low profit these days?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

For me there's no such thing as a "cycling cafe" and nor should there be. Instead, cafes that are happy to receive a lot of cyclists

I would agree. The successful places round here all serve a good product and are on easily accessible cycling routes and welcoming to cyclists. Combine that with their other regular customers and you tend to have a thriving cafe.

Shame though, any place that closes obviously means people losing livelihoods, and at a very precarious time.

On a side note, noticed that Parlee cycles has filed for bankruptcy. Will be interesting to see how the cycling industry fairs in the coming year, has the boom finally started to bust?

First.Aspect

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

I don't know - its in the Venn diagram where of where two low margin businesses overlap isn't it? Local bike shop and cafe. Just possibly it was a bad idea in the first place.

Given it opened in April 2010 that's more than a little unfair.

Possibly. Cleary it wouldn't have been my cup of tea. I am not saying there is any delight in someone's business failing, just that it was niche, so vulnerable.

I think we are well past peak-bike, and all the 2012 and Wiggo-Froomey mania seems a long time ago now.

Did they change their model at all to adapt? Or consider moving somewhere less expensive than central London? (Possibly trapped by a commercial lease without a break clause that came in time, who knows).

ugo.santalucia

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

For me there's no such thing as a "cycling cafe" and nor should there be. Instead, cafes that are happy to receive a lot of cyclists

I would agree. The successful places round here all serve a good product and are on easily accessible cycling routes and welcoming to cyclists. Combine that with their other regular customers and you tend to have a thriving cafe.

Shame though, any place that closes obviously means people losing livelihoods, and at a very precarious time.

On a side note, noticed that Parlee cycles has filed for bankruptcy. Will be interesting to see how the cycling industry fairs in the coming year, has the boom finally started to bust?

They will, as always, go for the obvious squeeze in the middle... so there will be more 20K bikes and more 300 quid bikes, with not very much in between.
There will be opportunities for second hand retailers to fill the gap in the market, with no shortage of Pinarellos

navrig2

First.Aspect said:

Not my neck of the woods, but is the issue that it was cool rather than good? Or that it was SO cycling focused that it catered to a tiny market? Or that it needed space (and expense) for bike maintenance that was not consistent with profits from catering, and vice versa? Or that you are only going to get a lot of custom two days a week?

For me there's no such thing as a "cycling cafe" and nor should there be. Instead, cafes that are happy to receive a lot of cyclists.

Like here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551738-d10397313-Reviews-Lanterne_Rouge-Gifford_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Or here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551901-d8512689-Reviews-Humbie_Hub-Humbie_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Both of which seem to have made it through covid. And both of which are full of cyclists on a Sunday, some of whom are not wearing this season's Rapha collection or there to network.

Our 2 favourite cafes........ followed by Tyninghame (closer to home so used for shorter rides).

First.Aspect

Wow, you wouldn't have thought Parlee would struggle. They should have stuck to bikes and frames that weren't horrific to look at. Back in the day the tinted clearcoat Parlee frames were amazing things.

You see that $2.1 million of inventory is what's killing them. That's one or two years' worth of sales at 2023 sales rates, and they'll have put parts on those bikes at 2021 or 2022 prices. Ooof.

The industry is a collapsing bubble.

ugo.santalucia

First.Aspect said:

The industry is a collapsing bubble.

It is a disaster of their own making.
Keep putting the prices up for what in essence is a piece of composite that comes out of a mould and at some point it all snaps (sometimes literally)

First.Aspect

ugo.santalucia said:

First.Aspect said:

The industry is a collapsing bubble.

It is a disaster of their own making.
Keep putting the prices up for what in essence is a piece of composite that comes out of a mould and at some point it all snaps (sometimes literally)

It is an example of when supply and demand fails. The industry as a whole forgot that their best future customers are their existing customers, and went instead down the price gouging route for 18 months. Now lots of people have given up on their lockdown hobbies, and the industry is left with the disgruntled bunch of people who used to cycle for fun anyway.

Will there be enough of a market even for base model bikes that cost £3k, when that used to buy you a high end bike?

I don't think so.

PMark

They might have other issues as well, but I suspect it is the current fuel costs which forced them to close now. I have family who run 2 bars in west london, in terms of footfall and income, it is actually the best it has ever been for them. But for the last few months they have made a loss because of the massive fuel bills. Things will improve as the weather gets warmer, but for many others which were not doing so well before, the current situation will unfortunately push them over the edge.

pblakeney

First.Aspect said:

...

Will there be enough of a market even for base model bikes that cost £3k, when that used to buy you a high end bike?

I don't think so.

I am probably an outlier but I have not bought a new frame since 2011.
Any company relying on people buying a new frame every two years won't last.

drhaggis

First.Aspect said:

Not my neck of the woods, but is the issue that it was cool rather than good? Or that it was SO cycling focused that it catered to a tiny market? Or that it needed space (and expense) for bike maintenance that was not consistent with profits from catering, and vice versa? Or that you are only going to get a lot of custom two days a week?

For me there's no such thing as a "cycling cafe" and nor should there be. Instead, cafes that are happy to receive a lot of cyclists.

Like here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551738-d10397313-Reviews-Lanterne_Rouge-Gifford_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Or here https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g551901-d8512689-Reviews-Humbie_Hub-Humbie_East_Lothian_Scotland.html

Both of which seem to have made it through covid. And both of which are full of cyclists on a Sunday, some of whom are not wearing this season's Rapha collection or there to network.

My club's wednesdays social ride often stops in one of these. The Humbie Hub in particular always has people, and the space it has is nice to leave your bike for a coffee.

EDIT: And yes, the bike market is absolutely mental. I understand that disc brakes haven't made things cheaper, and that the supply issues have really affected availability, but, gosh, current asking prices are mental.

andyrr

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...

Will there be enough of a market even for base model bikes that cost £3k, when that used to buy you a high end bike?

I don't think so.

I am probably an outlier but I have not bought a new frame since 2011.
Any company relying on people buying a new frame every two years won't last.

Really? You mean like bicycle brands (as opposed to component/clothing/accessory etc type related items) - such as Cannondale, Specialized, etc ? Surely any such brand requires existing customers to make a purchase and/or new customers to do the same.

First.Aspect

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...

Will there be enough of a market even for base model bikes that cost £3k, when that used to buy you a high end bike?

I don't think so.

I am probably an outlier but I have not bought a new frame since 2011.
Any company relying on people buying a new frame every two years won't last.

My newest bike is a 2018 model but I got it second hand just after covid at a suprisingly low price. Next newest is 2015, followed by 2009 followed by 2005.

I am equally slow on all of them so I don't see the point of upgrading.

rick_chasey

I enjoyed going, but then the last time I went is 8 years ago, so I can't really be annoyed it went under.

pblakeney

andyrr said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...

Will there be enough of a market even for base model bikes that cost £3k, when that used to buy you a high end bike?

I don't think so.

I am probably an outlier but I have not bought a new frame since 2011.
Any company relying on people buying a new frame every two years won't last.

Really? You mean like bicycle brands (as opposed to component/clothing/accessory etc type related items) - such as Cannondale, Specialized, etc ? Surely any such brand requires existing customers to make a purchase and/or new customers to do the same.

If they are going to be charging £3k for a base level bike then, yes. Why would I spend £3k to go the same speed in the same comfort, and £3k will not attract new cyclists.

ugo.santalucia

pblakeney said:

andyrr said:

pblakeney said:

First.Aspect said:

...

Will there be enough of a market even for base model bikes that cost £3k, when that used to buy you a high end bike?

I don't think so.

I am probably an outlier but I have not bought a new frame since 2011.
Any company relying on people buying a new frame every two years won't last.

Really? You mean like bicycle brands (as opposed to component/clothing/accessory etc type related items) - such as Cannondale, Specialized, etc ? Surely any such brand requires existing customers to make a purchase and/or new customers to do the same.

If they are going to be charging £3k for a base level bike then, yes. Why would I spend £3k to go the same speed in the same comfort, and £3k will not attract new cyclists.

you can get some decent bikes for 2k, but that is the real lower limit. Ribble do some

webboo

There you to be a saying that a good road bike was so many weeks of a skilled man’s wage. I think it was 2 or 3 so if it was 3 that would mean you would have to earning around 48 grand a year. That doesn’t seem that high for a skilled worker, it would be pretty low for a plumber.

ugo.santalucia

webboo said:

There you to be a saying that a good road bike was so many weeks of a skilled man’s wage. I think it was 2 or 3 so if it was 3 that would mean you would have to earning around 48 grand a year. That doesn’t seem that high for a skilled worker, it would be pretty low for a plumber.

Is it 48 net?
That is quite a good wage… it works as 70+ K gross

webboo

I think it was before tax but I could be wrong. In fact it was so long ago people got paid weekly rather than were salaried.

pblakeney

I’m not going to get into a debate about this but consider the weekly take home pay of someone on average wage.