The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

And an interesting article on Sadiq Khan trying to suppress research showing that the ULEZ expansion would make very little difference to air quality
https://bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-66570024

I do distinctly remember being roundly criticised for one of my 10 minute totally unqualified analyses of data that absolutely didn't show a significant change due to the first ULEZ, because in the hive mind's view, it did.

If I remember correctly, that was because you ignored the introduction of the T-charge emissions surcharge in 2017 which was in most regards the same as the ULEZ introduced in 2019.

So look, sorry to be a smart arse, but you can't be right because you think I was right for the wrong reason and therefore wrong even though I might be right.

And no, you are not recalling it correctly anyway. My point was there should have been policy related step changes. There were not. Lots of imaginative reasons were out forward, none of which to my mind were anything other than working back from the presumption that the data showed ULEZ worked.

kingstongraham

First.Aspect said:

kingstongraham said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

And an interesting article on Sadiq Khan trying to suppress research showing that the ULEZ expansion would make very little difference to air quality
https://bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-66570024

I do distinctly remember being roundly criticised for one of my 10 minute totally unqualified analyses of data that absolutely didn't show a significant change due to the first ULEZ, because in the hive mind's view, it did.

If I remember correctly, that was because you ignored the introduction of the T-charge emissions surcharge in 2017 which was in most regards the same as the ULEZ introduced in 2019.

So look, sorry to be a smart censored , but you can't be right because you think I was right for the wrong reason and therefore wrong even though I might be right.

And no, you are not recalling it correctly anyway. My point was there should have been policy related step changes. There were not. Lots of imaginative reasons were out forward, none of which to my mind were anything other than working back from the presumption that the data showed ULEZ worked.

You were looking for a step change in 2019 when ULEZ was introduced, and when you didn't see one, concluded that ULEZ can't have had an impact on the reduction in pollution. 2019 was not the date when ULEZ restrictions were first introduced.

kingstongraham

I would have expected an improvement anyway, as older vehicles got replaced in the natural scheme of things, accelerated by the introduction of the charge in 2017, and the expectation and introduction of the 24 hour a day ULEZ in 2019. I would not expect any massive step change in 2019.

pblakeney

I would have expected a marked drop off from March 2020 for obvious reasons.

kingstongraham

To be fair, the Imperial study quoted above also does the same. It looks at 12 weeks around the introduction of the ULEZ in 2019, and also looks at locations in London outside the ULEZ to get its overall figure.

So I think it is flawed in the same way and an additional way when used to refute evidence that the ULEZ has not made much difference. But even it says in the conclusions: "the mean effects across London were small; up to 3% reduction for NO2 and NOx ,... NO2 concentrations at locations within the ULEZ more consistently decreased." So the 3% in the article isn't really what it is being claimed.

It's here https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac30c1#erlac30c1s3

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

I would have expected an improvement anyway, as older vehicles got replaced in the natural scheme of things, accelerated by the introduction of the charge in 2017, and the expectation and introduction of the 24 hour a day ULEZ in 2019. I would not expect any massive step change in 2019.

This was my point, it was changing anyway. And if either policy made much difference, you'd expect some sort of signature in the graph other than a gradual trend.

You postulate that ULEZ accelerated it, but there's nothing to compare to. I'd bet that data for other parts of the EU subject to the same progressive emissions standards but not congestion charging would look remarkably similar.

Neither of us know, let's fade it, and even the academics disagree.

kingstongraham

First.Aspect said:

kingstongraham said:

I would have expected an improvement anyway, as older vehicles got replaced in the natural scheme of things, accelerated by the introduction of the charge in 2017, and the expectation and introduction of the 24 hour a day ULEZ in 2019. I would not expect any massive step change in 2019.

This was my point, it was changing anyway. And if either policy made much difference, you'd expect some sort of signature in the graph other than a gradual trend.

You postulate that ULEZ accelerated it, but there's nothing to compare to. I'd bet that data for other parts of the EU subject to the same progressive emissions standards but not congestion charging would look remarkably similar.

Neither of us know, let's fade it, and even the academics disagree.

The two studies were looking at different things, and the one that compares 2017 to 2019 makes more logical sense to me, but their assumptions may be a bit gung ho.

I would like to see comparisons of that period to other cities that had no restrictions for more confirmation.

One interesting thing from one of the studies is that pollution from taxis and buses increased in the immediate time frame, as they are exempt, but there are other measures to accelerate the adoption of cleaner technologies in those vehicles.

Stevo_666

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Pross

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

Stevo_666

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

Pross

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Stevo_666

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Pross

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Not what it says here. https://letstalk.kent.gov.uk/sevenoaks-town-wide-20mph-limit-and-traffic-calming#:~:text=Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs),-There are two&text=The effects of the proposed,Road in a southerly direction.


This backlash sounds exciting. Do you meet in secret with balaclavas and angle grinders or something?
Can't say I find a 30mph limit any less tedious than 20, but whatever.

Stevo_666

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

Read my post again. If I had said that all bad laws get ignored then you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. Your attempted nitpicking backfired.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Not what it says here. https://letstalk.kent.gov.uk/sevenoaks-town-wide-20mph-limit-and-traffic-calming#:~:text=Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs),-There are two&text=The effects of the proposed,Road in a southerly direction.


This backlash sounds exciting. Do you meet in secret with balaclavas and angle grinders or something?
Can't say I find a 30mph limit any less tedious than 20, but whatever.

Ooh good marks for effort. Luckily I dont live in Sevenoaks

Pross

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

Read my post again. If I had said that all bad laws get ignored then you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. Your attempted nitpicking backfired.

Nice try but I covered that attempt at backtracking. How do you decide if someone is ignoring speed limits because they are bad laws if you want to go down that route?

People ignore laws that they don’t want to be constrained by and the punishment isn’t severe enough to be a major deterrent to the risk of being caught. In the case of speeding a lot of people will risk going a few mph over on the off chance of getting caught, given a few points and a fine. Fewer will risk speeding to an extent where they would pick up a ban or risk jail time.

20mph is actually a far more evidence based limit than 30mph as it is the point where a slow increase in the rate of fatalities for pedestrians hit by a car starts to steepen. The pedestrian is 5 times more likely to die if hit at 50 kph than 30kph (I appreciate 30kph is slightly under 20mph and 50kph is slightly over 30mph but that’s the research data I’ve seen most recently that was used in the Welsh Government study).

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Not what it says here. https://letstalk.kent.gov.uk/sevenoaks-town-wide-20mph-limit-and-traffic-calming#:~:text=Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs),-There are two&text=The effects of the proposed,Road in a southerly direction.


This backlash sounds exciting. Do you meet in secret with balaclavas and angle grinders or something?
Can't say I find a 30mph limit any less tedious than 20, but whatever.

Ooh good marks for effort. Luckily I dont live in Sevenoaks

Seems to be a county policy I'm afraid. KCC has a page of very supportive stuff on their website. Time to stand for election?

Stevo_666

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

Read my post again. If I had said that all bad laws get ignored then you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. Your attempted nitpicking backfired.

Nice try but I covered that attempt at backtracking. How do you decide if someone is ignoring speed limits because they are bad laws if you want to go down that route?

People ignore laws that they don’t want to be constrained by and the punishment isn’t severe enough to be a major deterrent to the risk of being caught. In the case of speeding a lot of people will risk going a few mph over on the off chance of getting caught, given a few points and a fine. Fewer will risk speeding to an extent where they would pick up a ban or risk jail time.

20mph is actually a far more evidence based limit than 30mph as it is the point where a slow increase in the rate of fatalities for pedestrians hit by a car starts to steepen. The pedestrian is 5 times more likely to die if hit at 50 kph than 30kph (I appreciate 30kph is slightly under 20mph and 50kph is slightly over 30mph but that’s the research data I’ve seen most recently that was used in the Welsh Government study).

Not backtracking at all, just careful with my use of language, unlike your reading of it

Likewise, how do those setting the rules demonstrate that their aims are purely safety and not just making life difficult for motorists or raising revenue from fines on roads where the 'natural' speed is higher?

There are places where 20 is appropriate (including one in my village), but not nearly as many places as the are actually in force. Some I have experienced are just plain ridiculous. Anyway, I'm sure you'll be happy given that's going to be the default limit in Wales

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Not what it says here. https://letstalk.kent.gov.uk/sevenoaks-town-wide-20mph-limit-and-traffic-calming#:~:text=Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs),-There are two&text=The effects of the proposed,Road in a southerly direction.


This backlash sounds exciting. Do you meet in secret with balaclavas and angle grinders or something?
Can't say I find a 30mph limit any less tedious than 20, but whatever.

Ooh good marks for effort. Luckily I dont live in Sevenoaks

Seems to be a county policy I'm afraid. KCC has a page of very supportive stuff on their website. Time to stand for election?

As mentioned above there are some place where 20 is appropriate, including my village High Street. However round here they are used by exception rather than sprayed around liberally (excuse the pun) by leftie councils - a few good examples in London - or worse, set as the default limit as in Wales.

pangolin

I think your careful use of language has rather spoiled the pun Stevo.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

Read my post again. If I had said that all bad laws get ignored then you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. Your attempted nitpicking backfired.

Nice try but I covered that attempt at backtracking. How do you decide if someone is ignoring speed limits because they are bad laws if you want to go down that route?

People ignore laws that they don’t want to be constrained by and the punishment isn’t severe enough to be a major deterrent to the risk of being caught. In the case of speeding a lot of people will risk going a few mph over on the off chance of getting caught, given a few points and a fine. Fewer will risk speeding to an extent where they would pick up a ban or risk jail time.

20mph is actually a far more evidence based limit than 30mph as it is the point where a slow increase in the rate of fatalities for pedestrians hit by a car starts to steepen. The pedestrian is 5 times more likely to die if hit at 50 kph than 30kph (I appreciate 30kph is slightly under 20mph and 50kph is slightly over 30mph but that’s the research data I’ve seen most recently that was used in the Welsh Government study).

Not backtracking at all, just careful with my use of language, unlike your reading of it

Likewise, how do those setting the rules demonstrate that their aims are purely safety and not just making life difficult for motorists or raising revenue from fines on roads where the 'natural' speed is higher?

There are places where 20 is appropriate (including one in my village), but not nearly as many places as the are actually in force. Some I have experienced are just plain ridiculous. Anyway, I'm sure you'll be happy given that's going to be the default limit in Wales

Sounding just a teeny bit paranoid there 🙂

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Not what it says here. https://letstalk.kent.gov.uk/sevenoaks-town-wide-20mph-limit-and-traffic-calming#:~:text=Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs),-There are two&text=The effects of the proposed,Road in a southerly direction.


This backlash sounds exciting. Do you meet in secret with balaclavas and angle grinders or something?
Can't say I find a 30mph limit any less tedious than 20, but whatever.

Ooh good marks for effort. Luckily I dont live in Sevenoaks

Seems to be a county policy I'm afraid. KCC has a page of very supportive stuff on their website. Time to stand for election?

As mentioned above there are some place where 20 is appropriate, including my village Hight Street. However round here they are used by exception rather than sprayed around literally (excuse the pun) by leftie councils - a few good examples in London - or worse, set as the default limit as in Wales.

Can't think of anywhere locally bar a quarter mile bit of dual carriageway where you could sensibly do more than 20 anyway, so it's really not an issue. Just seems to be one of those things that people like to get upset about 🤷🏻‍♂️.

kingstongraham

The idea of a "natural" speed haha.

Pross

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

Read my post again. If I had said that all bad laws get ignored then you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. Your attempted nitpicking backfired.

Nice try but I covered that attempt at backtracking. How do you decide if someone is ignoring speed limits because they are bad laws if you want to go down that route?

People ignore laws that they don’t want to be constrained by and the punishment isn’t severe enough to be a major deterrent to the risk of being caught. In the case of speeding a lot of people will risk going a few mph over on the off chance of getting caught, given a few points and a fine. Fewer will risk speeding to an extent where they would pick up a ban or risk jail time.

20mph is actually a far more evidence based limit than 30mph as it is the point where a slow increase in the rate of fatalities for pedestrians hit by a car starts to steepen. The pedestrian is 5 times more likely to die if hit at 50 kph than 30kph (I appreciate 30kph is slightly under 20mph and 50kph is slightly over 30mph but that’s the research data I’ve seen most recently that was used in the Welsh Government study).

Not backtracking at all, just careful with my use of language, unlike your reading of it

Likewise, how do those setting the rules demonstrate that their aims are purely safety and not just making life difficult for motorists or raising revenue from fines on roads where the 'natural' speed is higher?

There are places where 20 is appropriate (including one in my village), but not nearly as many places as the are actually in force. Some I have experienced are just plain ridiculous. Anyway, I'm sure you'll be happy given that's going to be the default limit in Wales

You really weren't though were you? If you go down your 'careful with language' route you are just guessing at why someone might ignore speed limit laws so your original comment about what makes bad laws was just a waste of pixels.

I have no issue with the 20mph speed limits and they'll affect me on literally every journey I make, there is a process for exemptions and the roads I've seen in my area that these have been applied to make sense, there are a few others that I think could arguably be included but I don't have access to the relevant data to make an informed argument.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

But a huge amount of people use a mobile phone when driving which is your definition of a bad law.

Where did I say that specifically?

Have you got short term memory loss? It’s in the quote thread on this post but to make it easy for you

“The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored”.

The mobile phone laws get widely ignored so therefore, by your rationale, it is a bad law. Or do good laws also get ignored in which case it isn’t much use of evidence that drivers ignore speed limits as they are bad laws. You can’t have it both ways.

Read my post again. If I had said that all bad laws get ignored then you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. Your attempted nitpicking backfired.

Nice try but I covered that attempt at backtracking. How do you decide if someone is ignoring speed limits because they are bad laws if you want to go down that route?

People ignore laws that they don’t want to be constrained by and the punishment isn’t severe enough to be a major deterrent to the risk of being caught. In the case of speeding a lot of people will risk going a few mph over on the off chance of getting caught, given a few points and a fine. Fewer will risk speeding to an extent where they would pick up a ban or risk jail time.

20mph is actually a far more evidence based limit than 30mph as it is the point where a slow increase in the rate of fatalities for pedestrians hit by a car starts to steepen. The pedestrian is 5 times more likely to die if hit at 50 kph than 30kph (I appreciate 30kph is slightly under 20mph and 50kph is slightly over 30mph but that’s the research data I’ve seen most recently that was used in the Welsh Government study).

Not backtracking at all, just careful with my use of language, unlike your reading of it

Likewise, how do those setting the rules demonstrate that their aims are purely safety and not just making life difficult for motorists or raising revenue from fines on roads where the 'natural' speed is higher?

There are places where 20 is appropriate (including one in my village), but not nearly as many places as the are actually in force. Some I have experienced are just plain ridiculous. Anyway, I'm sure you'll be happy given that's going to be the default limit in Wales

Sounding just a teeny bit paranoid there 🙂

You're a very poor mind reader . Pross just needed to be corrected, that's all.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

photonic69 said:

Stevo_666 said:

Quite amusing how some people never question whether a 20mph limit is the appropriate limit for a given bit of road. These are often the same people who cannot understand why so many people ignore them.

It's quite irrelevant whether people question them or not. The limit is set and to not adhear to it is unlawful. End of. What pee's me off is the lack of enforcement of so many laws in this country. It's more of a lottery IF you get caught and not WHEN. Highway Code broken by probably 85% of drivers daily. Maybe more. So few caught and if they do get caught and you read about it in the papers, the level of sentencing handed down by the courts is so arbitrary. For instance - local paper reported a driver doing over 100mph in a 40, 58mph in a 30 and 45mph in a 20 over the course of a few days. Gets SIX points on licence and fines of £300 odd. No ban. Same article in paper mentions a woman getting caught for doing 79mph on the M-Way and gets banned for 6 months plus 6 points on licence with £450 fine and costs.

The law is the law but its well known that bad laws get ignored. A lot of 20mph limits are a good case in point.

Let's remember that many limits may well be set with aims other than safety in mind.

Is using a mobile when driving a bad law too then?

No, but that is a different issue. Good attempted whataboutery though.

What the other safety aspects of driving and why do they not get anywhere near the attention or enforcement as speed? Could it be to do with the draft that it's easier to catching and fine people for speeding? Call me a cynic if you will.

If you really can't bear it then get the limit changed. Better than sitting here moaning about it.

Dont worry, I'm part of the backlash against the car hating lefties/tree huggers. Also living in a nice Tory area means you don't get those sorts trying to put unnecessarily low limits in place to start with

Not what it says here. https://letstalk.kent.gov.uk/sevenoaks-town-wide-20mph-limit-and-traffic-calming#:~:text=Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs),-There are two&text=The effects of the proposed,Road in a southerly direction.


This backlash sounds exciting. Do you meet in secret with balaclavas and angle grinders or something?
Can't say I find a 30mph limit any less tedious than 20, but whatever.

Ooh good marks for effort. Luckily I dont live in Sevenoaks

Seems to be a county policy I'm afraid. KCC has a page of very supportive stuff on their website. Time to stand for election?

As mentioned above there are some place where 20 is appropriate, including my village Hight Street. However round here they are used by exception rather than sprayed around literally (excuse the pun) by leftie councils - a few good examples in London - or worse, set as the default limit as in Wales.

Can't think of anywhere locally bar a quarter mile bit of dual carriageway where you could sensibly do more than 20 anyway, so it's really not an issue. Just seems to be one of those things that people like to get upset about 🤷🏻‍♂️.

I guess that's a townie problem.

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

I think your careful use of language has rather spoiled the pun Stevo.

Autocorrect doing its job badly there - now corrected. Award yourself a gold star