The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

Jezyboy

I struggle to see much of a comparison between gaming (or Netflix or Spotify or Internet forums or art galleries or the ballet) where the relatively modest CO2 footprint provides a considerable amount of entertainment, with Bitcoin.

rick_chasey

I’m trying out this dictation function, so apologies for any mistakes.

All I meant was that I had never considered gaming to be a material impact on carbon output relative to other things we do all the time.

Part of the reason why I take a dim view of cars, is that the sooner we recognise the limited shelflife of cars, either combustion or electric, then the sooner we can re-orientate our society around different transport models that are more sustainable.

Currently everything is arranged on the assumption that the majority of us have cars apart from a few highly populated, dense urban areas, the urbanisation is only going to continue anyway so it makes sense in those places to start the transition first after all 80% of us over there and down the road. We can worry about people who live in the countryside.

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

focuszing723

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/race-to-net-zero-carbon-neutral-goals-by-country/

focuszing723

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-global-per-capita-co2-emissions/

briantrumpet

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

What, you think I need more reasons than there are already?

Stevo_666

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

Wheelspinner

rick_chasey said:

First I've heard of the carbon footprint perils of gaming...

Meh. Since when has ignorance been a defence?

Plenty of info available if you cared to look. As per RJS above, what do you think supports the platform - hamsters on wheels?

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

We've done this one already. Half of households don't even own a car. This majority of yours doesn't exist.

mully79

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

In reality it's just a plan to keep the English out of Wales by making all travel in and out unattractive.

I'm pretty sure the spoof "difficult driving conditions" between Cardiff and Port Talbot or the silly escort vans at roadworks in mid Wales are part of the same plot.

Wheelspinner

Jezyboy said:

I struggle to see much of a comparison between gaming (or Netflix or Spotify or Internet forums or art galleries or the ballet) where the relatively modest CO2 footprint provides a considerable amount of entertainment, with Bitcoin.

Perhaps have another look at the actual numbers for those services in terms of the power consumption.

https://www.energyforgrowth.org/blog/bitcoin-gaming-and-the-chasm-of-global-energy-inequality/

There’s a short summary.

Estimated California ONLY gaming in 2021 used more power than entire country Ethiopia. 100 million people.

California ONLY.

“Modest footprint” my ar$e.

Also, in the context of this thread about cars and the end of them, why does gaming (for example) where people sit in a room staring at a screen pretending to kill other people sitting in their rooms somehow become acceptable, from an environmental impact view, where driving out to meet actual people, or go for a walk in a real countryside is not?

pangolin

Yawn

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

We've done this one already. Half of households don't even own a car. This majority of yours doesn't exist.

I thought this stat was pretty amazing, so did some research. Sadly you are wrong.

45% have one car, but 33% have two or more. Only 22% are enlightened.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2021/national-travel-survey-2021-household-car-availability-and-trends-in-car-trips

pblakeney

Wheelspinner said:

...

Also, in the context of this thread about cars and the end of them, why does gaming (for example) where people sit in a room staring at a screen pretending to kill other people sitting in their rooms somehow become acceptable, from an environmental impact view, where driving out to meet actual people, or go for a walk in a real countryside is not?

Read through this thread. Most of it is people justifying their actions while wanting others to change. This is why the planet is goosed.

briantrumpet

mully79 said:

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

In reality it's just a plan to keep the English out of Wales by making all travel in and out unattractive.

I'm pretty sure the spoof "difficult driving conditions" between Cardiff and Port Talbot or the silly escort vans at roadworks in mid Wales are part of the same plot.

We'll get Neil Oliver onto it, though he'll probably link it to George Soros and vaccines somehow.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

We've done this one already. Half of households don't even own a car. This majority of yours doesn't exist.

Then add in those that would like one.

But try getting those who do have a car to give theirs up. I wish you luck...

Stevo_666

mully79 said:

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

In reality it's just a plan to keep the English out of Wales by making all travel in and out unattractive.

I'm pretty sure the spoof "difficult driving conditions" between Cardiff and Port Talbot or the silly escort vans at roadworks in mid Wales are part of the same plot.

There was also the weird arrangement where you had to pay a toll on the Severn Bridge to get into Wales but its free in the other direction. Should be the other way round, surely?

rick_chasey

Wheelspinner said:

rick_chasey said:

First I've heard of the carbon footprint perils of gaming...

Meh. Since when has ignorance been a defence?

Plenty of info available if you cared to look. As per RJS above, what do you think supports the platform - hamsters on wheels?

So what proportion of emissions is gaming?

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

mully79 said:

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

In reality it's just a plan to keep the English out of Wales by making all travel in and out unattractive.

I'm pretty sure the spoof "difficult driving conditions" between Cardiff and Port Talbot or the silly escort vans at roadworks in mid Wales are part of the same plot.

There was also the weird arrangement where you had to pay a toll on the Severn Bridge to get into Wales but its free in the other direction. Should be the other way round, surely?

Yeah, that always truck me as odd too.

BTW, did you know that Bob Dylan was photographed by the Aust Ferry (which the old Severn Bridge replaced), just before it closed?

Wheelspinner

pangolin said:

Yawn

Past your bedtime?😁

Nurse!!

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

We've done this one already. Half of households don't even own a car. This majority of yours doesn't exist.

I thought this stat was pretty amazing, so did some research. Sadly you are wrong.

45% have one car, but 33% have two or more. Only 22% are enlightened.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2021/national-travel-survey-2021-household-car-availability-and-trends-in-car-trips

Yes, that was the 1978 figure in that article that I read. That'll teach me for skim reading the Google summary while trying to do something else at the same time. Not surprisingly, ownership in major cities is still much lower than rural areas and towns, especially where there's better public transport.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

We've done this one already. Half of households don't even own a car. This majority of yours doesn't exist.

I thought this stat was pretty amazing, so did some research. Sadly you are wrong.

45% have one car, but 33% have two or more. Only 22% are enlightened.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2021/national-travel-survey-2021-household-car-availability-and-trends-in-car-trips

Yes, that was the 1978 figure. That'll teach me for skim reading the Google summary while trying to do something else at the same time.

And BTW I see why you mentioned households. As more than half of all adults have a car. As you were...

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

mully79 said:

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

In reality it's just a plan to keep the English out of Wales by making all travel in and out unattractive.

I'm pretty sure the spoof "difficult driving conditions" between Cardiff and Port Talbot or the silly escort vans at roadworks in mid Wales are part of the same plot.

There was also the weird arrangement where you had to pay a toll on the Severn Bridge to get into Wales but its free in the other direction. Should be the other way round, surely?

Yeah, that always truck me as odd too.

BTW, did you know that Bob Dylan was photographed by the Aust Ferry (which the old Severn Bridge replaced), just before it closed?

That's a new one to me. Hopefully it didn't cost him too much.

briantrumpet

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

mully79 said:

briantrumpet said:

This is the right kind of noise, from Wales:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/welsh-road-building-projects-stopped-failing-climate-review

“Our approach for the last 70 years is not working. The bypass that was demanded to relieve congestion often ends up leading to extra traffic, which in time brings further demands for extra lanes, wider junctions and more roads.

“Round and round we go, emitting more and more carbon as we do it, and we will not get to net zero unless we stop doing the same thing over and over.”

“We will still invest in roads. We are building new roads but we are raising the bar for where new roads are the right response to transport problems. We are also investing in real alternatives, including investment in rail, bus, walking and cycling projects."

I suspect that @Stevo_666 won't be moving to Wales any time soon.

In reality it's just a plan to keep the English out of Wales by making all travel in and out unattractive.

I'm pretty sure the spoof "difficult driving conditions" between Cardiff and Port Talbot or the silly escort vans at roadworks in mid Wales are part of the same plot.

There was also the weird arrangement where you had to pay a toll on the Severn Bridge to get into Wales but its free in the other direction. Should be the other way round, surely?

Yeah, that always truck me as odd too.

BTW, did you know that Bob Dylan was photographed by the Aust Ferry (which the old Severn Bridge replaced), just before it closed?

That's a new one to me. Hopefully it didn't cost him too much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aust_Ferry

The Martin Scorsese film No Direction Home, about the life of Bob Dylan, uses the Barry Feinstein photograph of Dylan standing in front of the Aust ferry terminal in May 1966, not long before it ceased operation. Dylan was on his way from Bristol, where he had played at the Colston Hall, to Cardiff

Can't find the cost though.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

...

Eventually, they will have to be some give from people if we collectively decide that cars are unsustainable as a mass transport solution that means some of you in very remote areas may not be able to live there in 80 years time.

IMO the error is thinking that mass transport will be required in 80 years time.
Should focus on society & automation. I'd place a bet but won't be around to collect. 😉

The error is assuming that the majority of UK people think anything like him and will both willingly give up their personal transport and make large swathes of Scotland, Wales and the North effectively uninhabitable.

Lol.

I mean totally missed the point anyway, but just a teensy bit of hyperbole there.

Just going on what he posted...sounds like you think like Rick as well, but it's OK to be in the minority

We've done this one already. Half of households don't even own a car. This majority of yours doesn't exist.

I thought this stat was pretty amazing, so did some research. Sadly you are wrong.

45% have one car, but 33% have two or more. Only 22% are enlightened.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/national-travel-survey-2021/national-travel-survey-2021-household-car-availability-and-trends-in-car-trips

Yes, that was the 1978 figure. That'll teach me for skim reading the Google summary while trying to do something else at the same time.

And BTW I see why you mentioned households. As more than half of all adults have a car. As you were...

Just how the stats are generally reported. Still some way from proving that majority.

mully79

Seriously though. Tolls that discourage traffic from using motorways should all be scrapped. It's ridiculous to have a private motorway around Birmingham and reduce the speed on the M5 through it to reduce pollution.

Wheelspinner

pblakeney said:

Wheelspinner said:

...

Also, in the context of this thread about cars and the end of them, why does gaming (for example) where people sit in a room staring at a screen pretending to kill other people sitting in their rooms somehow become acceptable, from an environmental impact view, where driving out to meet actual people, or go for a walk in a real countryside is not?

Read through this thread. Most of it is people justifying their actions while wanting others to change. This is why the planet is goosed.

Entirely true. Not just this thread either.