Right knee pain - bruised feeling right at the front

daniel_b

Morning all,

Yesterday I rode my new commuter into and back from work for the first time.
I have ridden a fair amount of miles on it, but only 30 odd in these Mavic shoes, however I had noted the right shoe was rubbing the crank, so I pushed the cleat to the inside of the shoe to give more clearance, which worked fine - took it for a short run to see if it felt ok, and it did, shoes in the middle of the float, not hard up against either side.
I tend to run my cleats fairly neutral with a hint of toe out/heel in if that makes sense.

I rode to work yesterday, and took it pretty easily, stretched, showered, dressed etc, worked for the day, got back into my kit to come home.
Gave it some more beans on the way home, nothing like a threshold effort, but somewhere around the higher end of Zone 2 power on average - cadence also pretty much spot on for me, at 85, though some lower gear grinding on some hills, but then I tend to gravitate that way anyway.

Reached home, stretched and showered, and whilst putting on socks noticed my right knee was feeling a bit tender - right at the front, as if it had been bruised, but I know I did not knock it into anything head on like that.

This carried on during the evening, and I can still feel it this morning, but there is no swelling, and the discomfort is much reduced, though still a bit twingy now and then.

The Mavic shoes are mid range, so no carbon sole, but a boa & velcro system that works well for me, I've used them for a good few hundred miles on other bikes, and 30 on this bike prior to this ride, although with the cleats in their original position.

I've been training consistently for about 16 months now, and despite catching covid this summer, a couple of colds, a bad one recently, and the usual reactions to vaccinations, I've managed to keep it climbing nicely, and in theory am about to reach my highest FTP.
I'm loathe to let that slip, but then equally i don't want to set it back majorly.
I can of course revisit the cleat placement on the shoe, but I wonder if the wider flared crank might make them incompatible with this shoe.
I'm not ruling out the saddle being too high, but bearing in mind I rode outside in these same shoes on this very bike, at 95% of FTP for an hour, I'm pretty sure it would have reared it's head at that point.

Tomorrow on my training calendar I have the following 60 minute workout.
Two batches of 5 X 60 or 70 second intervals at 125%, and inbetween 5 X 80 second intervals at 120%.

A couple of questions.

What would you look at on the bike / shoe to try and find the culprit?

Would you attempt the workout tomorrow morning if the knee is feeling ok at that point with no twinges?
It will be on my dedicated turbo bike with shoes that have never given me any issues.

Thanks

photonic69

Check seat height/fore-aft position.
I personally wouldn’t do a turbo workout. I used to do spin classes and use my turbo a lot. It always aggravated my right knee. Normal riding it was fine so I gave up indoor stuff

daniel_b

I'll double check those today, I have other bikes to compare against.

I've used the turbo almost weekly (holidays excepted) for in excess of 8 years, so I'm as acclimatised to it as I could be - I do recall putting up the saddle too much once upon a time, and having horribly clicking knees for a while, though no feeling like this one.

I also have a bit of left to right movement on my turbo and I think that makes a lot of difference as opposed to being locked in.

seanoconn

Have had similar problems multiple times. You know your saddle height by now and can probably tell whether it feels right or not, although raising the saddle will move you aft slight which might be the problem. Pain at the front would indicate saddle too heigh or too far forward. Even if your knee is behind the pedal axel the saddle might be too far forward in your current set up. Personally I’d start by moving the saddle back and give that a couple of rides. If that doesn’t resolve I’d be looking at the Q factor. Are you using different pedals? Did you only move - cleat? That could cause problems in itself. You have widened the distance between your feet which can cause pain to the inner knee if it’s outside your natural position. But I understand you had to avoid the rubbing. Tricky.

daniel_b

That's good to know.

I'm pretty clued in on my saddle height now, and when I had a bike fit 2 or so years ago, I think he left it exactly where it was - however I will take some measurements to be sure all is in the right place.

I have bene riding the bike with the stock saddle, which is slightly curved up at the back, and I am finding I need to push myself back.
I've been meaning to change it for my preferred flat style (Arione or similar) but was yet to get round to it - part of me was thinking it's mainly a commuter, just leave it as it is, but perhaps that is a contributory factor, and or suggesting the saddle is too far forward.

Pedals are actually off my previous commuter, Look Keo alberto contador yellow pedals, I'm not sure he thought they would end up on a winter commuter bike

But yes to answer the question, it was just the cleat I moved out, and I kept the rotation the same.

I have ridden Scott shoes on this bike, and they do not rub with the cleat not maxed out to the inside of the shoe, so it may annoyingly mean these shoes are incompatible with this crank - which would be a pain, as they were bought for commuting - fully reflective etc etc.

My knee is still giving a bit of a twinge now and then, I think my instinct is probably to skip tomorrow, and either look to do something on Friday or at the weekend, and give it a chance to recover.

Last night I feared it might be something really bad, but the fact it is lessening already gives me hope.

I will check front to back positioning, and saddle height later today or tomorrow.

webboo

When you check your saddle height, make sure it hasn’t dropped. I just got a new winter bike and on the first ride I hit bump and saddle dropped about a cm. By the end of the ride I was getting a bit of knee pain in the area of an old injury.
I didn’t realise the saddle had dropped at the time.
Also stock saddle is it the same length at your usual lone. Mine came with one of those short no nose ones. Which I’m not really sure whether you set it to front or to the back.

daniel_b

I will do, thanks for the tip.

I think it is a bit shorter now you mention it, where as the Arione's of old are quite lengthy - agreed it's very tricky, virtually impossible to compare nose or tail of these saddles and use that to compare.

I guess the only constant is the position of the seatpost.

imposter2.0

You've probably already answered your own question. Everything seemed to be fine before you moved your cleat position. Put it back to how it was and if you need to widen the Q factor slightly, fit spacers - but fit them both sides.

daniel_b

Agreed, the cleat is highly likely to be the cause, but I can't just move it back, as the shoe will rub against the crank, which is both annoying, and damaging to the shiny new GRX800 crank.

I'm going to check all of the various measurements as well, but it may end up being that this shoe is simply not compatible with this crankset - I used to use it fine on my Synapse, but that has an FSA crankset, perhaps a fair bit slimmer.
Word has it I may have a fair few other pairs of shoes, so I'll likely just bring one of those into play, and sell these on - they are in excellent condition.

I'm also going to change the saddle for sure, I've been putting up with the factory saddle for long enough really, which was a silyl idea to start with, seeing that this will be the bike I spent the most time on.

We have a Kona to sell soon, so I'll probably put this saddle on that prior to sale.

My knee is feeling a bit better this morning, and yes I did skip the workout, but it's still there in the background, but a significant improvement over what it was.
I might look to do a gentle spin tomorrow to see what it makes of it though.
I think I have had this kind of pain before, but I genuinely can't recall what the cause was or how long it took to rectify - of course I am loathe to set myself back and lose more fitness combined with gaining weight etc.

sungod

this is useful for possible causes of various knee pains...

https://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

daniel_b

Cheers SG, some useful stuff and suggestions on there.

I guess I have been lucky, and had no knee issues for several years - bound to happen eventually I guess

Knelt on it earlier, that kicked in a bit of discomfort, so something definitely not quite right in there - hoping it repairs soon, am missing being on the bike, as well as my fitness decreasing, and I kind of need to be able to ride into work (In different shoes) next week, though could possibly delay it by another week if push came to shove.

imposter2.0

daniel_b said:

Agreed, the cleat is highly likely to be the cause, but I can't just move it back, as the shoe will rub against the crank, which is both annoying, and damaging to the shiny new GRX800 crank.

By 'spacers', I meant pedal spacers. They will move your pedals (and by extension, your feet), away from the crank arms.

daniel_b

Ah I see, sorry, I understand now.

daniel_b

I forgot to update this.....

I had a good look at the mavic shoe versus my normal scott shoe.

Despite the cleat being pushed all the way back, it is a lot further forward than I have it on my Scott shoe.
My conclusion is that the design of the shoe does not lend itself to work very well with my limbs.
I must have been getting away with it in the previous setup, and then pushing the cleats in, has just tipped it over the edge, and caused the issues I felt.

I think I will likely sell them on, they are in very good condition.

With regards to the knee, I carried out a VO2 workout on the Friday after I had the pain, so 3 days rest, and happily it was fine - different bike, different (and well worn in) shoes etc.

I've also completed a threshold and a sweetspot workout since then, and have another VO2 and threshold scheduled for tomorrow and Saturday.

Not been out again on the bike yet, but may pop out for a gentle spin on Thursday evening, will ensure I am properly wrapped up though, looks parky.