TDF 2022:- Stage 21: La Défense Arena to Paris Champs-Elysées, 115.6Km ***Spoilers***

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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    I think he could have lost it on the cobbles . WvA saved him there ....that could have been a disaster
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,833
    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    Yeah, a few signs of vulnerability from JV in the last week would have kept the GC intrigue going at fever pitch.

    Plus Cav should have been there and suspect he would have got the record.

    With those two things we could have been looking at a 10/10 Tour.

  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    rick_chasey said:

    Yeah not sure I agree but I was only 15 in 2003 so not objective about it

    I wouldn't give 2003 top score .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    mididoctors said:

    Pross said:

    RichN95. said:

    Pross said:

    I'm struggling to work out how JV didn't win the team prize as well. I eos didn't have a very big gap when I looked about a week or so in despite having 4 riders in or around the top 4. After that JV seemed to have more riders up there each day than they did so I was expecting them to lose it every day.


    I did some analysis. The truth is that other than Hautacam, Jumbo rarely took time on Ineos. Ineos got riders in big breaks and on the McNaulty stage the Jumbo domestiques were well behind



    Goes to show how reality and perception often differ but probably more I just forgot how much time some of those breaks gained (I also thought JV had riders in a few breaks).

    Here's a task for you, how does the aggregate time difference between the top 10 compare to other years? It feels like the gaps are huge. 2014 seemed to have big gaps (with the gap between 1st and 2nd being huge) but I think this year is probably higher.
    The gap to 3rd just grew steadily as did 3rd to 4th .dispite gaps down the line 4 to 10 did widening they did switch about a fair bit ... Bardet nairo gaudu yo-yoed a lot .... Yates did ok at first then faded hanging on for 10th . One week too long for pidcock
    I have a theory that Geraint has horrific BO. The top two were desparate to drop him, the other GC didn't want to hold his wheel
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    mididoctors said:

    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    I think he could have lost it on the cobbles . WvA saved him there ....that could have been a disaster

    He wasn't even his team's leader then though.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    mididoctors said:

    Pross said:

    RichN95. said:

    Pross said:

    I'm struggling to work out how JV didn't win the team prize as well. I eos didn't have a very big gap when I looked about a week or so in despite having 4 riders in or around the top 4. After that JV seemed to have more riders up there each day than they did so I was expecting them to lose it every day.


    I did some analysis. The truth is that other than Hautacam, Jumbo rarely took time on Ineos. Ineos got riders in big breaks and on the McNaulty stage the Jumbo domestiques were well behind



    Goes to show how reality and perception often differ but probably more I just forgot how much time some of those breaks gained (I also thought JV had riders in a few breaks).

    Here's a task for you, how does the aggregate time difference between the top 10 compare to other years? It feels like the gaps are huge. 2014 seemed to have big gaps (with the gap between 1st and 2nd being huge) but I think this year is probably higher.
    The gap to 3rd just grew steadily as did 3rd to 4th .dispite gaps down the line 4 to 10 did widening they did switch about a fair bit ... Bardet nairo gaudu yo-yoed a lot .... Yates did ok at first then faded hanging on for 10th . One week too long for pidcock
    I have a theory that Geraint has horrific BO. The top two were desparate to drop him, the other GC didn't want to hold his wheel
    He rode it like his 2018 win...in a state of grace ...just rolled into Paris
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    RichN95. said:

    mididoctors said:

    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    I think he could have lost it on the cobbles . WvA saved him there ....that could have been a disaster

    He wasn't even his team's leader then though.
    Which makes jumbos on the road call so correct. .. and WvAs ride so crucial . It was a tour saving AND winning call

    In hindsight They had to keep roglic close enough on GC to force pog to follow the one twos over the telegraph. That s11 plan was made long before the tour started I am guessing
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    Still can't get my head around Van Aert not trying to win yesterday.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    ...
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,459
    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.

    The race also lacked a fully fit MDVP and Alaphillipe

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    RichN95. said:

    mididoctors said:

    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    I think he could have lost it on the cobbles . WvA saved him there ....that could have been a disaster

    He wasn't even his team's leader then though.
    Sorry, but this is just wrong. Vingegaard and Roglic were genuine joint leaders from the start. This isn't just the Danish glasses on, Jumbo-Visma knew what they had in Vingegaard, they've been developing him for this - you can see from how cautious they were with him last year. On this forum his leadership role was described as some sort of Jumbo-Visma bluff (as Vingegaard was seriously underrated), but it wasn't. The plan was never "win the Tour with Roglic", it was always "win the Tour with the team".
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    kingstongraham said:

    Still can't get my head around Van Aert not trying to win yesterday.

    Said he was properly pooped after the TT.
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    RichN95. said:

    mididoctors said:

    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    I think he could have lost it on the cobbles . WvA saved him there ....that could have been a disaster

    He wasn't even his team's leader then though.
    Sorry, but this is just wrong. Vingegaard and Roglic were genuine joint leaders from the start. This isn't just the Danish glasses on, Jumbo-Visma knew what they had in Vingegaard, they've been developing him for this - you can see from how cautious they were with him last year. On this forum his leadership role was described as some sort of Jumbo-Visma bluff (as Vingegaard was seriously underrated), but it wasn't. The plan was never "win the Tour with Roglic", it was always "win the Tour with the team".
    They planned on having roglic and Jonas high on GC going over the telegraph long before Copenhagen
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    RichN95. said:

    mididoctors said:

    RichN95. said:

    r0bh said:

    I think for a 5/5 the jersey would have needed to be traded between Pog and Ving a few more times.


    And while the winner was unexpected, that winner was never in any jeopardy
    I think he could have lost it on the cobbles . WvA saved him there ....that could have been a disaster

    He wasn't even his team's leader then though.
    Sorry, but this is just wrong. Vingegaard and Roglic were genuine joint leaders from the start. This isn't just the Danish glasses on, Jumbo-Visma knew what they had in Vingegaard, they've been developing him for this - you can see from how cautious they were with him last year. On this forum his leadership role was described as some sort of Jumbo-Visma bluff (as Vingegaard was seriously underrated), but it wasn't. The plan was never "win the Tour with Roglic", it was always "win the Tour with the team".

    I'll phrase it differently. At that point of the race there was no real jeopardy for the team. If one failed there was always the other - as it actually turned out. And indeed his jeopardy was no more dramatic than any other GC rider.
    What I meant was from the time when it became apparent that he was the leader, of both team and the race he was never in jeopardy
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    edited July 2022
    Fair enough 👍
    Though I think anyone being repeatedly attacked by Pogacar is in some form of jeopardy, he was just up to it. Any one of those attacks could have turned the race upside down if he couldn't hold the wheel
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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,717
    edited July 2022
    Remember this..?

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    ddraver said:

    Remember this..?

    Jumbo rescued that stage with a do or die effort
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    Jumbo had to keep both leaders up on GC
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    Lanterne_Rogue said:

    The gap to 10th was the biggest in the last couple of decades - you could add up all the gaps individually but (surprise surprise) they'll come back to the same answer.

    Flicking through it's also fairly uncommon, though not unknown, for so few riders to be within ten minutes.

    Not really, if you had the top 9 all at 1 minute intervals and 10 at 25 minutes the aggregate would be 33 minutes but if the top 9 were at 2 minute intervals and 10 was at 25 minutes the aggregate would be 41 minutes. The gaps between most of the top 10 positions seemed very big this year.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited July 2022
    Pross said:

    Lanterne_Rogue said:

    The gap to 10th was the biggest in the last couple of decades - you could add up all the gaps individually but (surprise surprise) they'll come back to the same answer.

    Flicking through it's also fairly uncommon, though not unknown, for so few riders to be within ten minutes.

    Not really, if you had the top 9 all at 1 minute intervals and 10 at 25 minutes the aggregate would be 33 minutes but if the top 9 were at 2 minute intervals and 10 was at 25 minutes the aggregate would be 41 minutes. The gaps between most of the top 10 positions seemed very big this year.

    I think there were more DNFs than usual amongst top 10 contenders - Roglic, O'Connor, Mas, Haig, Caruso, Martin. The only other recent Tour were 10th was over 20 minutes back was 2014 when similar happened.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • amrushton
    amrushton Posts: 1,313
    rick_chasey said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Still can't get my head around Van Aert not trying to win yesterday.

    Said he was properly pooped after the TT.
    Unlike the other 19 stages that he just rode at the front all day/every day
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    rick_chasey said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Still can't get my head around Van Aert not trying to win yesterday.

    Said he was properly pooped after the TT.
    He needs to show more ambition and self belief.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,340
    Pross said:

    Lanterne_Rogue said:

    The gap to 10th was the biggest in the last couple of decades - you could add up all the gaps individually but (surprise surprise) they'll come back to the same answer.

    Flicking through it's also fairly uncommon, though not unknown, for so few riders to be within ten minutes.

    Not really, if you had the top 9 all at 1 minute intervals and 10 at 25 minutes the aggregate would be 33 minutes but if the top 9 were at 2 minute intervals and 10 was at 25 minutes the aggregate would be 41 minutes. The gaps between most of the top 10 positions seemed very big this year.
    But the tenth place rider in the first instance is at 33 minutes and 41 in the second? So you can save yourself a load of maths, surely?
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    ...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    From The Guardian corrections corner after Vingegaard mentioned his 'two girls'


    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,592
    RichN95. said:

    From The Guardian corrections corner after Vingegaard mentioned his 'two girls'


    His other girlfriend is going to be annoyed that he didn't mention her now.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,340
    edited July 2022
    Being the Guardian we can only be thankful they didn't suggest he was dedicating his win to his two grills.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships

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