You can teach an old dog new tricks!

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Always been something of a pedal grinder, big gears at low cadence (standard is around 65rpm). As I am no longer in the first flush of youth, recovery is definitely longer and going up every climb out of the saddle in the big ring may not be the best idea!

As a little experiment I have started riding at around 80rpm, dropping 3-4 gears lower on average, with small ring spinning on climbs.

As expected, recovery seems to be easier, no stiff legs at night or the following morning. What I hadn't expected was my power numbers to go up by around 20%. I assume this is due to a higher but more even power distribution throughout the ride as my NP is much closer to AP (usually around 15 watts difference as opposed to 30-40 watts under a lower cadence).

I would have assumed before starting this, that as a result of the much lower gearing (even with the higher cadence), I would see a similar or slightly lower power, but with the desired lower RPE and faster recovery. I was not expecting to see a far higher power output alongside the lower RPE and quicker recovery.

What about other forum members, are most people spinners or mashers? Have you found big differences in power and/or recovery between the two?

ugo.santalucia

I am forcing myself to TT at 90RPM, as opposed to my usual 80... power a bit down, but speed unaffected... interesting

gethinceri

I maintain 95rpm on a DC 10mile.
85 on a road ride.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I am forcing myself to TT at 90RPM, as opposed to my usual 80... power a bit down, but speed unaffected... interesting

That's what I expected to see myself, Ugo. I am assuming you are pushing smaller gears at the higher cadence? Perhaps the aerodynamics of a TT bike come into play in relation to a lower wattage?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I maintain 95rpm on a DC 10mile.
85 on a road ride.

Do you ride with power? If so, do you notice much difference between the two?

daniel_b

When I started I was most definitely a grinder, 70ish was about what I would average naturally.

At that point I just rode my bike now and then, no training, no consistency, just sporadic rides.

Roll forward a good number of years and I found TrainerRoad - that got me on the turbo consistently, with power and cadence readings, and that encouraged me to generally sit at about 90+.

I still TR consistently, but in the last 2-3 years have found that if I go for a full gas road ride, I tend to end up averaging ~80 for my cadence, so I think for me a little bit more pushing is probably optimal for emptying the tank, but if I want a ride that is nearly as fast, but which doesn't take as long to recover from, then 90 seems to be the way to go.

Also for the TR workouts when it says to exceed 100rpm for certain intervals, I don't ignore it as such, but I will start at 100+ and then let it naturally come down to 90, or 80 or wherever it feels comfortable, rarely lower, and if it does it just means I am hanging on.

ugo.santalucia

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I am forcing myself to TT at 90RPM, as opposed to my usual 80... power a bit down, but speed unaffected... interesting

That's what I expected to see myself, Ugo. I am assuming you are pushing smaller gears at the higher cadence? Perhaps the aerodynamics of a TT bike come into play in relation to a lower wattage?

I use a road bike... I think higher cadence means less "dead time" and perhaps I get to speed faster after a turn... I looked at the times in comparison to my club mates and it seems to make no difference, but I am about 10 Watts down on the raw average and normalised power. Ultimately I am there to post fast times, not high power figures, so all good!

pblakeney

My experience is exactly the same as the OP.
I did a familiar route after watching Froome spin through the Tour. It felt weird and slow. Only I got 3 pb’s. Lesson learned.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Over the last five years I've usually been a spinner, somewhere in the 90-110rpm ballpark.

But then my old Direto turbo semi-broke around Feb, with resistance massively increasing, instead of using most of the 34/50 11-34 range I became limited to just the 34 ring with 25/27/30/34 sprockets covering ~150W (at low ~60rpm cadence) to ~450W.

It's made me an awful lot more comfortable staying in a bigger gear on climbs outdoors this year, where a short ramp might drop my cadence down towards ~60rpm.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Roll forward a good number of years and I found TrainerRoad - that got me on the turbo consistently, with power and cadence readings, and that encouraged me to generally sit at about 90+.

I am the same on the turbo, Dan, up around 90ish. I think that is mainly as I ride to a set power on ERG mode though, which requires the higher cadence. For some reason I never thought to try and replicate this out on the road!

Full gas tempo rides on the road has always meant biggest gear I can manage (again still only around 70rpm) for around 90-120mins. I think I will try and up the cadence to around 90rpm on these now, with slightly lower gearing and see where that gets me power and speed wise.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

It's made me an awful lot more comfortable staying in a bigger gear on climbs outdoors this year, where a short ramp might drop my cadence down towards ~60rpm.

Have always been 60ish and biggest gear I can muster on the climbs. I think with the small chainring, I am probably around 90ish on climbs. The power output seems similar but at the end of the ride my legs feel much better.

gethinceri

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I maintain 95rpm on a DC 10mile.
85 on a road ride.

Do you ride with power? If so, do you notice much difference between the two?

Yes, but a 10 takes me less than 24 mins and a road ride van be 1-6 hours.
Terrain also differs wildly and they’re on different bikes.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Yes, but a 10 takes me less than 24 mins and a road ride van be 1-6 hours.
Terrain also differs wildly and they’re on different bikes.

Fair enough, guess there is always a lot of variables at play.

That's a good time for a 10, under 24mins!

daniel_b

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

Roll forward a good number of years and I found TrainerRoad - that got me on the turbo consistently, with power and cadence readings, and that encouraged me to generally sit at about 90+.

I am the same on the turbo, Dan, up around 90ish. I think that is mainly as I ride to a set power on ERG mode though, which requires the higher cadence. For some reason I never thought to try and replicate this out on the road!

Full gas tempo rides on the road has always meant biggest gear I can manage (again still only around 70rpm) for around 90-120mins. I think I will try and up the cadence to around 90rpm on these now, with slightly lower gearing and see where that gets me power and speed wise.

What I was trying to say, is that I used to try and religiously stick to the prescribed trainerroad cadence suggestions, but now I tend to use it as a guide, but now self select more often than not.

The main part of this mornings workout was four four minute blocks, at 113% of ftp.
This one had no instructions, but normally a workout like this, TR would suggest 90 or higher for the duration.
As this kicks in from a lot less, I tend to wind up the cadence to about 100, and then let the increased resistance naturally drop my cadence, and then I just sit at what I find comfortable/bearable for the full 4 minutes.

Looking at the stats from this morning, my cadence averaged out at:
75 \ 77 \ 78 \ 72

Clearly for the last one I was starting to tire (They had 3 minute recovery valleys in between them) but that is in essence how I am more able to get through these (for me) hard intervals, as I don't believe if I had tried to keep my cadence at 90+ I would have been able to complete all of the intervals.

And this tallies for me out on the road as well - between 75 & 80 seems to currently be the sweetspot for me to ride to the best of my ability, and also not be ruined at the end of the ride.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

It's made me an awful lot more comfortable staying in a bigger gear on climbs outdoors this year, where a short ramp might drop my cadence down towards ~60rpm.

Have always been 60ish and biggest gear I can muster on the climbs. I think with the small chainring, I am probably around 90ish on climbs. The power output seems similar but at the end of the ride my legs feel much better.

Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone, a semi-controversial Aussie(?) ex-pro vegan Tuber, said something about low cadence power produces more metabolites. Sounds reasonable, always came across as one of the most sensible things he said on one of his vids I watched a few years ago.

daniel_b

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

It's made me an awful lot more comfortable staying in a bigger gear on climbs outdoors this year, where a short ramp might drop my cadence down towards ~60rpm.

Have always been 60ish and biggest gear I can muster on the climbs. I think with the small chainring, I am probably around 90ish on climbs. The power output seems similar but at the end of the ride my legs feel much better.

Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone, a semi-controversial Aussie(?) ex-pro vegan Tuber, said something about low cadence power produces more metabolites. Sounds reasonable, always came across as one of the most sensible things he said on one of his vids I watched a few years ago.

Are Metabolites a bad thing?

My theory is that the sweetspot for each person is very individual, in the same way that peoples max hr, or heart rate zones will be unique from person to person.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

daniel_b said:

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

It's made me an awful lot more comfortable staying in a bigger gear on climbs outdoors this year, where a short ramp might drop my cadence down towards ~60rpm.

Have always been 60ish and biggest gear I can muster on the climbs. I think with the small chainring, I am probably around 90ish on climbs. The power output seems similar but at the end of the ride my legs feel much better.

Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone, a semi-controversial Aussie(?) ex-pro vegan Tuber, said something about low cadence power produces more metabolites. Sounds reasonable, always came across as one of the most sensible things he said on one of his vids I watched a few years ago.

Are Metabolites a bad thing?

My theory is that the sweetspot for each person is very individual, in the same way that peoples max hr, or heart rate zones will be unique from person to person.

There will be plenty of others, but lactate is one metabolite and with the right sort of training, you can improve your tolerance to it to some extent.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

What I was trying to say, is that I used to try and religiously stick to the prescribed trainerroad cadence suggestions, but now I tend to use it as a guide, but now self select more often than not.

That makes sense, and has always been my approach. I think I am trying to force myself away from this as I get lazy and naturally revert to low cadence and big gears.

I guess the whole point of the change for me is the recovery aspect. I ride 18-20,000km a year, most of which is structured training. I think this volune and intensity is still manageable as I get older but my methods need to change as over the last 12 months I have really noticed recovery is longer and long rides with lots of vo2 max efforts on climbs are harder from an RPE point of view.

I think this higher cadence approach may be good longer term, but I need to stay disciplined with it!

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone, a semi-controversial Aussie(?) ex-pro vegan Tuber, said something about low cadence power produces more metabolites. Sounds reasonable, always came across as one of the most sensible things he said on one of his vids I watched a few years ago.

Yeah, I have seen a fair few of his vids. You need to sort through the guff to find the helpful stuff but he does seem to have reasonable knowledge in some areas.

gethinceri

He’s a clock.
Remove the “l”

simon_e

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

Harley 'Durianrider' Johnstone, a semi-controversial Aussie(?) ex-pro vegan Tuber, said something about low cadence power produces more metabolites. Sounds reasonable

Bullshit. Lactate is not a waste product.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/lactate-cycling-35412

There are so many more reliable, better informed people online that you really shouldn't need to pay any attention to him. I honestly wouldn't waste 5 seconds of my time listening to the ar5ewipe.

ugo.santalucia

The connection between lactate and muscle soreness was always a weak one... with bizarre theories like lactate crystallising and producing needles that would sting the nerves... a lot of tosh... it is obvious that inflammation is the cause of pain, like for every other muscular pain.
And yet, every other cycling commentator on TV keeps going on about pain caused by lactic acid

masjer

I think lactic acid is actually used as a fuel.

JimD666

Lactic vs Lactate

https://www.livestrong.com/article/470283-what-is-the-difference-between-lactic-acid-lactate/

ugo.santalucia

masjer said:

I think lactic acid is actually used as a fuel.

plenty of it in your saurkrauts!

masjer

ugo.santalucia said:

masjer said:

I think lactic acid is actually used as a fuel.

plenty of it in your saurkrauts!

I don't eat it. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong?

ugo.santalucia

masjer said:

ugo.santalucia said:

masjer said:

I think lactic acid is actually used as a fuel.

plenty of it in your saurkrauts!

I don't eat it. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong?

Kimchi then, kefir and yogurt... fermentation by lactobacilli produces lactic acid as byproduct

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I love the way threads morph on this forum. We started with cadence and recovery, moved onto the supposed merits (or lack thereof) of Durianrider, and ended up on fermentation