saturday quoi que vous fassiez, écrasez l'infâme, et aimez qui vous aime
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Tangential, but. I recall a university classmate of mine who at end of term / year exam time would literally almost pixx himself with anxiety ahead of the exam, run off to the loo multiple times before start o'clock. But he eventually would get in the zone, work his way through the papers, and get an ok result. He graduated 2:1 Hons so got there. But it was quite 'amusing' observing his behaviour before exams.
Anyways. Gym gymed, rain abated enough so didn't get drenched just dampish walking there and back. Off in a bit to the plague zone supermercado, via traffic queues no doubt due to in-town roads digging ups, drop off some supplies for self-isolating daughter.
Belgie cyclocross catch up to follow.0 -
am intrigued ny this because I can't, for the life of me, ever ever get my head around "text book" maths but haven't done too badly with numbers in real life.johngti said:
No because it’s not just exams. There’s loads of walks of life where having a grasp of numbers is important and lots of people have a tendency towards maths anxiety. Loads of research on how it affects otherwise very capable and intelligent people. But there’s also a growing body of evidence that people can be taught to deal with it and for it not to be disabling (in the broadest sense - it’s obviously not a disability!)MattFalle said:or they just don't get it and fall to bits in the exam?
tbh, i've never had to work out x(n×2) squared to the power of TDVs bra size but you need to know that schizz to pass exams.
see previous convo on this for a really good disc amongst us all.
maybe you need a "traditional" maths exam and a "real life" maths exam?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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It really isn’t about exams though. It’s a physiological response when asked to do any kind of maths. They’ve actually done brain scans of people with a tendency towards it and areas of the brain associated with stress/worry/anxiety fire when these people are asked to do any kind of maths. Not linked to intelligence at all, also different to exam anxiety and other types of anxiety. And also different to dyscalculia (the maths version of dyslexia). Obviously it has an impact on academic performance which is clearly where I’m coming from but only insofar as I’m a teacher who doesn’t think I’m just teaching to an exam but I have to acknowledge that this is my career.MattFalle said:
am intrigued ny this because I can't, for the life of me, ever ever get my head around "text book" maths but haven't done too badly with numbers in real life.johngti said:
No because it’s not just exams. There’s loads of walks of life where having a grasp of numbers is important and lots of people have a tendency towards maths anxiety. Loads of research on how it affects otherwise very capable and intelligent people. But there’s also a growing body of evidence that people can be taught to deal with it and for it not to be disabling (in the broadest sense - it’s obviously not a disability!)MattFalle said:or they just don't get it and fall to bits in the exam?
tbh, i've never had to work out x(n×2) squared to the power of TDVs bra size but you need to know that schizz to pass exams.
see previous convo on this for a really good disc amongst us all.
maybe you need a "traditional" maths exam and a "real life" maths exam?
Basically, there’s all sorts of models and theories about it most of which carry a degree of “yeah that’s probably fair”. Which is where my literature review comes in 😉0 -
I kind of agree. Can’t see any point in making kids who have no interest in higher maths should be made to do big chunks of the current GCSE. A bit of algebra is still important (any job that involves statistical analysis demands a modicum of understanding about where it all comes from if only to be able to spot mistakes when they pop up) but things like circle theorems is nonsense for many.oxoman said:
MF actually talks sense. My maths ability compared to my kids is pants, especially when it comes to equations etc. Now bare in mind I'm an electrician and some calculus is required occasionally but not to the extent it used to be due to software packages etc. But day to day mental maths, wages, vat etc comes easy to me but they find it hard. So perhaps 2 maths exams might be worth seriously considering.MattFalle said:
am intrigued ny this because I can't, for the life of me, ever ever get my head around "text book" maths but haven't done too badly with numbers in real life.johngti said:
No because it’s not just exams. There’s loads of walks of life where having a grasp of numbers is important and lots of people have a tendency towards maths anxiety. Loads of research on how it affects otherwise very capable and intelligent people. But there’s also a growing body of evidence that people can be taught to deal with it and for it not to be disabling (in the broadest sense - it’s obviously not a disability!)MattFalle said:or they just don't get it and fall to bits in the exam?
tbh, i've never had to work out x(n×2) squared to the power of TDVs bra size but you need to know that schizz to pass exams.
see previous convo on this for a really good disc amongst us all.
maybe you need a "traditional" maths exam and a "real life" maths exam?
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basically thats a posh way of saying that they don't get it and pile in at exam time, yah?johngti said:
It really isn’t about exams though. It’s a physiological response when asked to do any kind of maths. They’ve actually done brain scans of people with a tendency towards it and areas of the brain associated with stress/worry/anxiety fire when these people are asked to do any kind of maths. Not linked to intelligence at all, also different to exam anxiety and other types of anxiety. And also different to dyscalculia (the maths version of dyslexia). Obviously it has an impact on academic performance which is clearly where I’m coming from but only insofar as I’m a teacher who doesn’t think I’m just teaching to an exam but I have to acknowledge that this is my career.MattFalle said:
am intrigued ny this because I can't, for the life of me, ever ever get my head around "text book" maths but haven't done too badly with numbers in real life.johngti said:
No because it’s not just exams. There’s loads of walks of life where having a grasp of numbers is important and lots of people have a tendency towards maths anxiety. Loads of research on how it affects otherwise very capable and intelligent people. But there’s also a growing body of evidence that people can be taught to deal with it and for it not to be disabling (in the broadest sense - it’s obviously not a disability!)MattFalle said:or they just don't get it and fall to bits in the exam?
tbh, i've never had to work out x(n×2) squared to the power of TDVs bra size but you need to know that schizz to pass exams.
see previous convo on this for a really good disc amongst us all.
maybe you need a "traditional" maths exam and a "real life" maths exam?
Basically, there’s all sorts of models and theories about it most of which carry a degree of “yeah that’s probably fair”. Which is where my literature review comes in 😉
so the whole point of traditional exams needs to be looked at?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Well, yes exams need to be looked at really carefully but maths anxiety goes beyond that and can seriously hinder people who need to be able to manipulate numbers and stuff, no exams involved. Just trying to help the new lot coming through to not have that when they’re adults really.MattFalle said:
basically thats a posh way of saying that they don't get it and pile in at exam time, yah?johngti said:
It really isn’t about exams though. It’s a physiological response when asked to do any kind of maths. They’ve actually done brain scans of people with a tendency towards it and areas of the brain associated with stress/worry/anxiety fire when these people are asked to do any kind of maths. Not linked to intelligence at all, also different to exam anxiety and other types of anxiety. And also different to dyscalculia (the maths version of dyslexia). Obviously it has an impact on academic performance which is clearly where I’m coming from but only insofar as I’m a teacher who doesn’t think I’m just teaching to an exam but I have to acknowledge that this is my career.MattFalle said:
am intrigued ny this because I can't, for the life of me, ever ever get my head around "text book" maths but haven't done too badly with numbers in real life.johngti said:
No because it’s not just exams. There’s loads of walks of life where having a grasp of numbers is important and lots of people have a tendency towards maths anxiety. Loads of research on how it affects otherwise very capable and intelligent people. But there’s also a growing body of evidence that people can be taught to deal with it and for it not to be disabling (in the broadest sense - it’s obviously not a disability!)MattFalle said:or they just don't get it and fall to bits in the exam?
tbh, i've never had to work out x(n×2) squared to the power of TDVs bra size but you need to know that schizz to pass exams.
see previous convo on this for a really good disc amongst us all.
maybe you need a "traditional" maths exam and a "real life" maths exam?
Basically, there’s all sorts of models and theories about it most of which carry a degree of “yeah that’s probably fair”. Which is where my literature review comes in 😉
so the whole point of traditional exams needs to be looked at?0 -
Can I play devil's advocate?
I don't think its numbers manipulation that scares people - I'll pissabout with numbers all day despite failing gcse maths (got a d ithink)
however, i deal with numbers all the time in loads of different ways and past career relied on me being able to read, understand and use numbers everyday.
give me algebra or trig and i'm stuffed.
is it not the teaching of certain aspects of traditional maths that needs to be examined rather than numbers themselves? and more in that, what is actually being taught?
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Different issue to maths anxiety though innit. As it happens, I’ve long thought everyone doing the same exam is unnecessary. Teach people what they need. Maths anxiety is a physiological response with loads of contributing factors but that you can equip people to minimise the impact of.0
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i actually think its exam anxiety over anything subject specific.
walk into an exam hall, sit me down at a desk and oh. stick me in a practical test and no dramas ......
so begs the question - do we need a review of traditional exam practices?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Exam/test anxiety is something else. And we definitely need a review of traditional exam practices but we have a government that believes the system is purely for ranking people and have a stupid belief that our exams represent some sort of gold standard.MattFalle said:i actually think its exam anxiety over anything subject specific.
walk into an exam hall, sit me down at a desk and oh. stick me in a practical test and no dramas ......
so begs the question - do we need a review of traditional exam practices?0 -
That sucks oxo. He should have been helped more, or a better induction into the school. We’re basically screwed by the accountability expectations forced on us I’m afraid. And thanks for the kudos, much appreciatedoxoman said:What I find annoying is some school / academies will focus all their attention on getting the pupils to pass a paticular exam boards syllabus rather than looking at the subject as whole. A friend's lad left his high-school with straight A,s and A*s but had to swap school to do A levels and dropped out after 4 months because he couldn't keep up with the pupils who had been at the school from day 1. His school was syllabus focussed rather than covering the subject as whole. I understand everything is results focused hence schools doing what they do, sadly that doesn't help the kids. Good luck on your Doctorate Jonhgti and mega kudos for teaching.
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I often get frustrated (anxious is probably the wrong word) not being able to solve maths things at work, sometimes I just can't figure out how to rearrange the equation or even add/multiply in the right order.
I just have to put it to one side and come back later.0 -
At University, I was advised to do a course called 'Confidence counts' as I was a mature student and people got 'rusty'. Turned out is was far too easy and way below what I did in my engineering diploma but what struck me was how difficult this basic maths was for people and they really got wound up about it. I just wonder if it as the way they were taught in the first instance.
Shorty likes Maths - there's no anxiety associated with it. She says she likes it because it's a challenge if it's harder than what she is used to but I did introduce her early to certain numbers that flicked the light switch like the pattern in 9's - 27 = 3 x 9 and confirmed by 2 + 7 etc.
I elected to do a modular degree because each subject was split between 1 exam and 1 essay given that I previously failed miserably at 0 Grades. (Sat 9 and passed 5 with a C).
I think I lacked a fear of failure and didn't apply myself but when I got to Uni and did do the study, I got much higher grades in the exams than the essays. I ended up relishing them.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
It’s not just the way they were taught. Everyone has a particular cognitive load they can work with and that’s basically of two types. Intrinsic load is the stuff that’s actually to do with the task and extraneous load is all of the other guff that gets thrown at them. People with maths anxiety have this big push of adrenaline from the fight/flight response which acts as a massive blockage and which stops them being able to process the intrinsic load in maths; the extraneous load takes over. And what’s experienced in maths is different to other types of anxiety, according to scans of the brain and psychological scales at any rate. (Interestingly, though, MFL causes similar effects).
The things that cause anxiety aren’t necessarily the teaching either. Influence of parents (“I could never do maths” is very common and positions the subject as un-doable), and peer pressure (maths isn’t cool) play a part. Girls are more badly affected from an early age, boys tend to get the negative emotional responses later on. My preferred model of how it develops is a cyclical one: feel nervous about a test, underperform in the test; reinforced that maths is hard; round and round they go. So the research is about giving tools to break the cycle and be able to move on by more effectively managing their cognitive load.
Teaching has moved on a lot. Teachers are much better at looking at teaching methods and stuff like questioning in class and giving feedback. But this is a different type of thing altogether because it’s ultimately about well-being and safeguarding so it’s a bit of a paradigm shift for many. But there’s some evidence that it works and makes a difference to kids’ experience in school so it’s worthwhile giving attention to it.
I realise how boring this may be. Sorry!!0 -
Fight or flight is a manifest human response to a threat to survival. However what we now perceive as a threat is somewhat different to when we were cavemen or women.pinno said:
Au contraire.johngti said:
I realise how boring this may be. Sorry!!
The fight or flight tendency is manifest in mental health problems - anxiety, depression etc. Interesting that maths causes parallel/similar psychological issues.
There lies the issue.0 -
Yes, t's the natural instinct of many animals and we are still animals but I was referring to the over reaction to stress.webboo said:
Fight or flight is a manifest human response to a threat to survival. However what we now perceive as a threat is somewhat different to when we were cavemen or women.pinno said:
Au contraire.johngti said:
I realise how boring this may be. Sorry!!
The fight or flight tendency is manifest in mental health problems - anxiety, depression etc. Interesting that maths causes parallel/similar psychological issues.
There lies the issue.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Put simply. You get stressed and anxious usually due to conflict. Which then leads to your autonomic nervous system triggering your fight or flight response.
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BB just got serious...Advocate of disc brakes.0
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It's a glitch in The Matrix."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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Sorry. Didn’t mean to bring some respectability to proceedings.0
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johngti said:
It’s not just the way they were taught. Everyone has a particular cognitive load they can work with and that’s basically of two types. Intrinsic load is the stuff that’s actually to do with the task and extraneous load is all of the other guff that gets thrown at them. People with maths anxiety have this big push of adrenaline from the fight/flight response which acts as a massive blockage and which stops them being able to process the intrinsic load in maths; the extraneous load takes over. And what’s experienced in maths is different to other types of anxiety, according to scans of the brain and psychological scales at any rate. (Interestingly, though, MFL causes similar effects).
The things that cause anxiety aren’t necessarily the teaching either. Influence of parents (“I could never do maths” is very common and positions the subject as un-doable), and peer pressure (maths isn’t cool) play a part. Girls are more badly affected from an early age, boys tend to get the negative emotional responses later on. My preferred model of how it develops is a cyclical one: feel nervous about a test, underperform in the test; reinforced that maths is hard; round and round they go. So the research is about giving tools to break the cycle and be able to move on by more effectively managing their cognitive load.
Teaching has moved on a lot. Teachers are much better at looking at teaching methods and stuff like questioning in class and giving feedback. But this is a different type of thing altogether because it’s ultimately about well-being and safeguarding so it’s a bit of a paradigm shift for many. But there’s some evidence that it works and makes a difference to kids’ experience in school so it’s worthwhile giving attention to it.
I realise how boring this may be. Sorry!!
I won't be bothering to ride with you if you're going to talk about this wham for 3 hours.
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Fixed that for you 😉tetley10 said:johngti said:It’s not just the way they were taught. Everyone has a particular cognitive load they can work with and that’s basically of two types. Intrinsic load is the stuff that’s actually to do with the task and extraneous load is all of the other guff that gets thrown at them. People with maths anxiety have this big push of adrenaline from the fight/flight response which acts as a massive blockage and which stops them being able to process the intrinsic load in maths; the extraneous load takes over. And what’s experienced in maths is different to other types of anxiety, according to scans of the brain and psychological scales at any rate. (Interestingly, though, MFL causes similar effects).
The things that cause anxiety aren’t necessarily the teaching either. Influence of parents (“I could never do maths” is very common and positions the subject as un-doable), and peer pressure (maths isn’t cool) play a part. Girls are more badly affected from an early age, boys tend to get the negative emotional responses later on. My preferred model of how it develops is a cyclical one: feel nervous about a test, underperform in the test; reinforced that maths is hard; round and round they go. So the research is about giving tools to break the cycle and be able to move on by more effectively managing their cognitive load.
Teaching has moved on a lot. Teachers are much better at looking at teaching methods and stuff like questioning in class and giving feedback. But this is a different type of thing altogether because it’s ultimately about well-being and safeguarding so it’s a bit of a paradigm shift for many. But there’s some evidence that it works and makes a difference to kids’ experience in school so it’s worthwhile giving attention to it.
I realise how boring this may be. Sorry!!
I won't be bothering to ride with you.0
