Using a fork without lawyer tabs

siddy1972
siddy1972 Posts: 180
in Workshop
I’ve just acquired a Colnago with a Precisa fork. I noticed there’s no lawyer tabs on the fork. I’m a bit nervous about this if I’m honest, particularly as I’ve had a skewer come lose once a while back.
Looking for advice about my best options really. Internal cam skewers, bolt together skewers, best brands etc. Anyone out there with some experience?
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Comments

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,479
    edited October 2021
    I've had mine for 13 incident free years. Standard Campagnolo QRs that came with wheels. How did cyclists cope for the decades of QR and no tabs?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,864
    I'd say Campag or Shimano internal cam skewers, avoid cheap lightweight jobs.
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
    Cotic Solaris
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    siddy1972 said:

    I’ve just acquired a Colnago with a Precisa fork. I noticed there’s no lawyer tabs on the fork. I’m a bit nervous about this if I’m honest, particularly as I’ve had a skewer come lose once a while back.
    Looking for advice about my best options really. Internal cam skewers, bolt together skewers, best brands etc. Anyone out there with some experience?

    You understand why they're called 'lawyer' tabs - and not 'safety' tabs - don't you..?
  • siddy1972
    siddy1972 Posts: 180
    veronese68 said:

    I'd say Campag or Shimano internal cam skewers, avoid cheap lightweight jobs.

    Thanks for the reply. I’ve got an Edco internal cam job on there at the mo. I hear the Dura Ace ones are the bees knees for clamping force, or do you reckon the one I have on there will be good enough?

  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    When was the last you had a wheel fall out. I haven’t had one do it in 35+ years of riding.
  • siddy1972
    siddy1972 Posts: 180
    Well, that’s the thing. I had a front skewer work loose on me a couple of years ago. Granted, it was on a disc brake bike with crappy skewers, but the knocking noise on the front made me stop and that was when I realised if it weren’t for the tabs, I would have been face down in the road.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,864
    I have a disc braked bike with quick release, never had one come loose. I make sure they are done up tight when I fit a wheel, never felt the need to check them as they don't come undone. Standard Shimano qr skewers.
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
    Cotic Solaris
  • andrew_s-2
    andrew_s-2 Posts: 53
    With a front rim brake wheel, or a rear wheel with vertical dropouts, pretty much any QR is OK, provided you remember to do it up.

    With a rear wheel and horizontal dropouts, you'll have problems with the wheel pulling over and rubbing a chainstay if the QR is weak, so use a Campag/Shimano style internal cam or allen key skewer, done up tight.

    A front wheel with disc brakes needs lawyer lips and a tight internal cam or allen key skewer, or there is a chance of the brake forcing the wheel out of the dropouts. There's a reason why through axles have become common at the same time as disc brakes.
  • siddy1972
    siddy1972 Posts: 180
    Thanks for the replies, I’ll get some Shimano I reckon. I’ve been paranoid since that cheapo one worked loose on me. One of those external cam with a plastic bush, it gives pause for thought...
    Cheers all.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    andrew_s-2 said:

    With a front rim brake wheel, or a rear wheel with vertical dropouts, pretty much any QR is OK, provided you remember to do it up.

    With a rear wheel and horizontal dropouts, you'll have problems with the wheel pulling over and rubbing a chainstay if the QR is weak, so use a Campag/Shimano style internal cam or allen key skewer, done up tight.

    A front wheel with disc brakes needs lawyer lips and a tight internal cam or allen key skewer, or there is a chance of the brake forcing the wheel out of the dropouts. There's a reason why through axles have become common at the same time as disc brakes.

    I bet that on all the pro teams riding discs there won’t be any lawyer lips to be seen.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,479
    webboo said:

    andrew_s-2 said:

    With a front rim brake wheel, or a rear wheel with vertical dropouts, pretty much any QR is OK, provided you remember to do it up.

    With a rear wheel and horizontal dropouts, you'll have problems with the wheel pulling over and rubbing a chainstay if the QR is weak, so use a Campag/Shimano style internal cam or allen key skewer, done up tight.

    A front wheel with disc brakes needs lawyer lips and a tight internal cam or allen key skewer, or there is a chance of the brake forcing the wheel out of the dropouts. There's a reason why through axles have become common at the same time as disc brakes.

    I bet that on all the pro teams riding discs there won’t be any lawyer lips to be seen.
    Aren't they all on thru axles?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    At least one of being able to tighten a qr, being able to feel if your wheel is hitting the inside of the fork, or remembering to tighten them before you go for a ride, must surely be a prerequisite for safe cycling? Kind of up there with making sure your brakes actually work.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,479
    Three things I do before any ride.
    1. Check tyre pressue.
    2. Check the wheels are spinning freely.
    3. A brake check at the bottom of the drive.
    Only sensible.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    siddy1972 said:

    Well, that’s the thing. I had a front skewer work loose on me a couple of years ago. Granted, it was on a disc brake bike with crappy skewers, but the knocking noise on the front made me stop and that was when I realised if it weren’t for the tabs, I would have been face down in the road.

    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    Years ago people would cut them off to make wheel changes easier/quicker if that helps reassure
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • womack
    womack Posts: 566
    pblakeney said:

    Three things I do before any ride.
    1. Check tyre pressue.
    2. Check the wheels are spinning freely.
    3. A brake check at the bottom of the drive.
    Only sensible.

    Pretty much the same as me especially on the winter bike. No matter how clear the mudguards were of the tyre when you got off it they always seem to catch next time you get on it!!!

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,479
    edited October 2021
    womack said:

    pblakeney said:

    Three things I do before any ride.
    1. Check tyre pressue.
    2. Check the wheels are spinning freely.
    3. A brake check at the bottom of the drive.
    Only sensible.

    Pretty much the same as me especially on the winter bike. No matter how clear the mudguards were of the tyre when you got off it they always seem to catch next time you get on it!!!

    Agreed. I gave up and downsized my tyres from 28mm to 25mm. A little less comfortable but I am happier with the peace and quiet. 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • i.bhamra
    i.bhamra Posts: 304
    I agree with all the comments above that it's probably not going to be a problem, if you are still worried then I'd get some of the DT Swiss RWS skewers, I had some come with a set of wheels and once tightened up there is no way they are coming undone on their own.

    https://www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/rws-technology
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    If you are really worried use a bolt like the good old days. But make sure it doesn't come loose. Oh....
  • poptart242
    poptart242 Posts: 531
    Once a few years back I used a front fork bike rack with a bike with no lawyer tabs. I forgot about this, and then the bike flew off the roof at 65mph.

    My fault entirely, clearly I didn't do it up tight enough and the tabs weren't there to save me from my poor choices.
  • Ncovidius
    Ncovidius Posts: 229
    Lawyer lips are so named for a reason. Most manufacturers build them into the designs for a good reason, I’ve never really seen the necessity really. The manufacturers are just covering their backsides.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Ncovidius said:

    Lawyer lips are so named for a reason. Most manufacturers build them into the designs for a good reason, I’ve never really seen the necessity really. The manufacturers are just covering their backsides.

    You should read all the other post before posting, then you would realised that your nemesis had posted this yesterday.
  • andrew_s-2
    andrew_s-2 Posts: 53
    imposter2.0 said:


    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

    Not so.

    If you are braking hard, a disc brake exerts more than enough force on the axle to overcome your bodyweight.
    I've watched it happen, mid tour in France. The rider was uninjured, but the forks hitting the road without a wheel meant they required replacement before we could continue.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,479
    andrew_s-2 said:

    imposter2.0 said:


    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

    Not so.

    If you are braking hard, a disc brake exerts more than enough force on the axle to overcome your bodyweight.
    I've watched it happen, mid tour in France. The rider was uninjured, but the forks hitting the road without a wheel meant they required replacement before we could continue.

    Not a problem on Precisa forks since they are not disc brakes.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    andrew_s-2 said:

    imposter2.0 said:


    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

    Not so.

    If you are braking hard, a disc brake exerts more than enough force on the axle to overcome your bodyweight.
    I've watched it happen, mid tour in France. The rider was uninjured, but the forks hitting the road without a wheel meant they required replacement before we could continue.

    sorry - are you saying he braked so hard he broke his bike?
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,379
    MattFalle said:

    andrew_s-2 said:

    imposter2.0 said:


    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

    Not so.

    If you are braking hard, a disc brake exerts more than enough force on the axle to overcome your bodyweight.
    I've watched it happen, mid tour in France. The rider was uninjured, but the forks hitting the road without a wheel meant they required replacement before we could continue.

    sorry - are you saying he braked so hard he broke his bike?
    I think he's saying that someone had a wheel fall out under braking. In the TdF, in front of him either when he was in a team car or in the poloton. So this would have been a disc bike with qr's, which narrows it down somewhat.

    I'm guessing it never happened.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    He has a very serious and stern style of writing, so I'd hazard a guess he's a club rider and this was probably supposed to have happened on an organised tour within which he wore club kit.

    if it did could you imagine the serious faces at the inquest over dinner? Gawd, that would have gone on for hours, let alone all the shenanigans on his first club ride back.
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    andrew_s-2 said:

    imposter2.0 said:


    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

    Not so.

    If you are braking hard, a disc brake exerts more than enough force on the axle to overcome your bodyweight.
    I've watched it happen, mid tour in France. The rider was uninjured, but the forks hitting the road without a wheel meant they required replacement before we could continue.

    TBH, I wasn't really talking about disc brakes, the wheels for which these days are generally secured with thru-axles.

    Assuming you have enough situational awareness to know when your wheel is loose (and the good sense to stop and re-tighten), then not having lawyer tabs remains a non-issue.

  • diplodicus
    diplodicus Posts: 722
    First.Aspect said:

    MattFalle said:

    andrew_s-2 said:

    imposter2.0 said:


    I think you are misunderstanding what the tabs are supposed to be for. As long as the wheel is on the road (ie you are not pulling a wheelie or something) then the wheel is not going to come out - lawyer tabs or not.

    Not so.

    If you are braking hard, a disc brake exerts more than enough force on the axle to overcome your bodyweight.
    I've watched it happen, mid tour in France. The rider was uninjured, but the forks hitting the road without a wheel meant they required replacement before we could continue.

    sorry - are you saying he braked so hard he broke his bike?
    I think he's saying that someone had a wheel fall out under braking. In the TdF, in front of him either when he was in a team car or in the poloton. So this would have been a disc bike with qr's, which narrows it down somewhat.

    I'm guessing it never happened.


    I think he says "mid tour in France" not the Tour de France
  • andrew_s-2
    andrew_s-2 Posts: 53
    I did.

    Coming to a stop in the campsite entrance, and the front wheel just popped out, writing off the forks and front rack. No wheelies or mucking about, just regular in the saddle stopping.

    If it was going to happen, the timing couldn't have been better. 45 minutes earlier, and it would have been on one of the hairpins dropping off the Galibier. As it was, the bike shop in Briancon was not only within walking distance, they had a suitable replacement pair of forks in stock.

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