New Shimano Dura Ace & Ultegra Di2 Groupsets
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And with this new groupset they'll be starting at £3500 - £4500.elbowloh said:
My first carbon roadbike with ultegra (6700) cost about than £1600 in around 2012.The13thcog said:
This is exactly what I'm saying. Currently there is a nice upward curve in prices and easy to set your budget, but this new groupset skips that process and instead 'jumps' to mid/high real quick.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:But when I read its the same for Ultegra I was gobsmacked. It instantly hit me that bike prices, even for mediocre run of the mill ones sporting Ultegra will now be way higher.
I know Shimano will say that 105 is your mechanical option and that's fine. But by doing away with mechanical Ultegra, any person looking at say a £1500 bike with 105 on, will no longer be able to jump just a few hundred quid to £1800 - £2000 for a bike with upgraded mechanical Ultegra like they used to. Instead there will be a massive jump to £2500 if you want Ultegra, because it will only be available as Di2.
I hope I am wrong but this, combined with the focus now almost entirely on disc brakes, suggests that the bike industry is pushing even more towards the production and sale of complete bikes. There seems to be a move away from bikes at the entry level budget and more towards the mid to high range. Sticking electronic groups, disc and (often) carbon rims on a lot of the build options pushes the prices up nicely!
I think a lot of the big bike manufacturers may look to move away from the sale of frames which would mean they are also going to monopolise groupsets and further reduce the supply of components available to us regular buyers.
I may be doom-mongering here but it does seem as though many of the big brands are now intent on exploiting the massive interest in the sport that has grown over the last few years and are going after customers with bigger wallets and are pricing bikes accordingly.
Only yesterday I was reading about new bike builds with the new group sets on and starting prices were £6/7k!! Its just becoming a joke for what should be a relative in-expensive pastime.
Now carbon bikes with ultegra are more like £2500-£35000 -
I suspect Shimano are.bumping everything up a notch, so those bikes will have 105 instead. Ultegra was conventionally very close in performance but much much cheaper than DA. This confused people like MF and I think made ultegra look much less premium than the other second tier groupsets.The13thcog said:
And with this new groupset they'll be starting at £3500 - £4500.elbowloh said:
My first carbon roadbike with ultegra (6700) cost about than £1600 in around 2012.The13thcog said:
This is exactly what I'm saying. Currently there is a nice upward curve in prices and easy to set your budget, but this new groupset skips that process and instead 'jumps' to mid/high real quick.MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:But when I read its the same for Ultegra I was gobsmacked. It instantly hit me that bike prices, even for mediocre run of the mill ones sporting Ultegra will now be way higher.
I know Shimano will say that 105 is your mechanical option and that's fine. But by doing away with mechanical Ultegra, any person looking at say a £1500 bike with 105 on, will no longer be able to jump just a few hundred quid to £1800 - £2000 for a bike with upgraded mechanical Ultegra like they used to. Instead there will be a massive jump to £2500 if you want Ultegra, because it will only be available as Di2.
I hope I am wrong but this, combined with the focus now almost entirely on disc brakes, suggests that the bike industry is pushing even more towards the production and sale of complete bikes. There seems to be a move away from bikes at the entry level budget and more towards the mid to high range. Sticking electronic groups, disc and (often) carbon rims on a lot of the build options pushes the prices up nicely!
I think a lot of the big bike manufacturers may look to move away from the sale of frames which would mean they are also going to monopolise groupsets and further reduce the supply of components available to us regular buyers.
I may be doom-mongering here but it does seem as though many of the big brands are now intent on exploiting the massive interest in the sport that has grown over the last few years and are going after customers with bigger wallets and are pricing bikes accordingly.
Only yesterday I was reading about new bike builds with the new group sets on and starting prices were £6/7k!! Its just becoming a joke for what should be a relative in-expensive pastime.
Now carbon bikes with ultegra are more like £2500-£3500
You could argue that DA should be a lot cheaper instead, but hey, people will buy it.0 -
Part of the problem is that I'm probably not unusual in that I don't want my best bike to have Shimano 105. I'm sure it's great - it's probably better in many ways than the old Dura Ace 9 speed I used to have - it's probably what I need but it's not what I want.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1
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That said I've done most of my riding recently on a bike with Tiagra or a rigid mtb with plus size tyres and a sticky shifter cable.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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You will get over it in time. Who knows, they might rebrand a bit. 105 used the be bottom tier when I started... Or was that 600? Now the have a few others below.DeVlaeminck said:Part of the problem is that I'm probably not unusual in that I don't want my best bike to have Shimano 105. I'm sure it's great - it's probably better in many ways than the old Dura Ace 9 speed I used to have - it's probably what I need but it's not what I want.
I'm guessing if you want nice mechanical it will be campag now. I bet they stick with mechanical at record and chorus level.0 -
DeVlaeminck said:
Part of the problem is that I'm probably not unusual in that I don't want my best bike to have Shimano 105. I'm sure it's great - it's probably better in many ways than the old Dura Ace 9 speed I used to have - it's probably what I need but it's not what I want.
^^^This^^^
I have 105 on my winter bike which works absolutely fine but when I’m shopping for a new best bike I’ll be “forced” to either have that again or go for Campag or SRAM. The new Ultegra is just too expensive.
It’s psychological of course but I want something better than 105 on a best bike.1 -
I’ve got a 105 5700 equipped winter bike and a 6800 Ultegra winter bike, the difference is the design of the brifters, and a minuscule weight difference. I don’t compete, I don’t race, I don’t care. But if Shimano bin the mechanical Ultegra sets, it will be a ( temporary ) pain in the arse.ibr17xvii said:DeVlaeminck said:Part of the problem is that I'm probably not unusual in that I don't want my best bike to have Shimano 105. I'm sure it's great - it's probably better in many ways than the old Dura Ace 9 speed I used to have - it's probably what I need but it's not what I want.
^^^This^^^
I have 105 on my winter bike which works absolutely fine but when I’m shopping for a new best bike I’ll be “forced” to either have that again or go for Campag or SRAM. The new Ultegra is just too expensive.
It’s psychological of course but I want something better than 105 on a best bike.
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I think thats how the majority of riders probably think. Its left from the old days of when the tiers were a bit more spread apart. Everyone knew DA was the top, Ultegra was the middle and 105 was sort of entry level and a bit above Sora.DeVlaeminck said:Part of the problem is that I'm probably not unusual in that I don't want my best bike to have Shimano 105. I'm sure it's great - it's probably better in many ways than the old Dura Ace 9 speed I used to have - it's probably what I need but it's not what I want.
That tier system has been blurred the last ten years though, what with DA getting updated, Ultegra becoming more like DA and 105 moving up to Ultegra level of a few years back.
Ive got Di2 on my top bike and 105 on my endurance/winter bike. Di2 is great, but Ive got to say the 105 works very well, shifts gear easy enough and the shifters are light to use. Its more like Ultegra from 3-4 years ago. The only problem I have with shifting isn't down to the groupset, its more down to me. Coming from Di2 where its just a quick click of the button to then jumping on the 105, I often don't push the shifters enough to engage the next gear, because my head is so used to the minuscule fingertip button pushing. But that's nitpicking.
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Agree with the above. My best bike (what I have just sold for cash flow reasons) had ultegra Di2 on, my second bike has r7020 fitted. Di2 is definitely better but the 105 stuff is pretty much impossible to tell apart from r6800 series Ultegra IMO. Looks pretty good too!1
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I have the same issue when I change from my 105 equipped bike to my mechanical Dura Ace equipped bike.The13thcog said:
I think thats how the majority of riders probably think. Its left from the old days of when the tiers were a bit more spread apart. Everyone knew DA was the top, Ultegra was the middle and 105 was sort of entry level and a bit above Sora.DeVlaeminck said:Part of the problem is that I'm probably not unusual in that I don't want my best bike to have Shimano 105. I'm sure it's great - it's probably better in many ways than the old Dura Ace 9 speed I used to have - it's probably what I need but it's not what I want.
That tier system has been blurred the last ten years though, what with DA getting updated, Ultegra becoming more like DA and 105 moving up to Ultegra level of a few years back.
Ive got Di2 on my top bike and 105 on my endurance/winter bike. Di2 is great, but Ive got to say the 105 works very well, shifts gear easy enough and the shifters are light to use. Its more like Ultegra from 3-4 years ago. The only problem I have with shifting isn't down to the groupset, its more down to me. Coming from Di2 where its just a quick click of the button to then jumping on the 105, I often don't push the shifters enough to engage the next gear, because my head is so used to the minuscule fingertip button pushing. But that's nitpicking.0 -
Not really sure what people are bothered about.
If you're a Pro racer, you'll have DA given to you. Anyone actually buying it is mental.
If you're serious enough about cycling as a hobby to spend a few quid and want electronic shifting, buy Ultegra.
If you want a solid groupset that is good enough for anyone buy 105.0 -
lettingthedaysgoby said:
Not really sure what people are bothered about.
If you're a Pro racer, you'll have DA given to you. Anyone actually buying it is mental.
If you're serious enough about cycling as a hobby to spend a few quid and want electronic shifting, buy Ultegra.
If you want a solid groupset that is good enough for anyone buy 105.
That could apply to DA as well for those (unlike me) have the funds to buy it.
If you want it & can afford it why not?2 -
Absolutely this ^^^
Why do people feel they have to tell people who have disposable income that they are ‘mental’ if they spend it on something that they deem expensive?
I’m serious enough about my cycling hobby (I did 5x 100 mile rides back to back two weeks back, and a 250 mile ride last Thursday). I’m a professional, earning very good money. My kids are all adults and my mortgage is minimal. I like to spend my money on my one real hobby, which is cycling.
I have the previous two generations of Dura Ace Di2 on a couple of best bikes. I have latest (last) generation 105 hydraulic on my winter bike. The difference in shifting performance between the excellent mechanical 105 and either of the Di2 bikes is night and day. I love the Di2 and am more than happy with it. Sure it’s expensive and the next generation will be more so, however the quoted release prices are unlikely to be the actual prices people end up paying, well at least after the shortage is sorted.
I’m looking to replace the older of my best bikes with a custom titanium build, at the moment edging towards Enigma. Again, it’s expensive but I’ve saved the money up. Why shouldn’t I spend it on what I actually really like rather than something that someone else deems ‘perfectly adequate’?
Sure it’s the law of diminishing returns, but I’m not buying a bike (well building it myself actually) and spending xxxx amount making out that it will improve my performance by xxxx amount. I’m not stupid. But, what it will do is put a massive smile on my face and be top end, lovely and will add a certain something to my enjoyment.
At the same time I’m more than happy and would never diss someone else for not choosing to spend their hard earned on such a bike. There are plenty of options for most budgets. What is more concerning from my point of view is the gap between top end and middle tier that Shimano appear to be creating. There seems to be less choice on that middle ground for those who don’t want top end at top end prices.
But when it comes to spending your money, spend it as you see fit on what works for you. It’s horses for courses. Never forget that what appears ridiculously expensive to one person certainly doesn’t to some others. And I would argue what is more ‘mental’ is spending (I.e. borrowing) money to buy something you can’t afford and paying large amounts of interest that you can’t really afford, than someone spending money that they have and can absolutely afford to spend. The item being bought is irrelevant.0 -
^^^100%^^^
I’ve spent all summer on my 1st Di2 bike & I love it so I’m seriously considering getting it put on my winter bike or maybe even buy a new bike altogether.
Yes even the R8050 stuff is expensive especially compared to mechanical, yes there’s nothing wrong with my 105 mechanical, yes Di2 is probably too good to potentially trash in the UK winter weather but if I can afford it & I want it I’ll buy it.
Each to their own.1 -
I'm surprised that anyone wants mechanical .It seems that they have noted Sram's success.
On a recent Mech course the instructor suggested mechanical would be obsolete within a few years .I tend to agree0 -
I have no interest in electronic shifting. I have no desire to have to charge or check that the battery has charged before going for a ride. I know it's not much of a faff, but one I can't be arsed with.trevor.hall12 said:I'm surprised that anyone wants mechanical .It seems that they have noted Sram's success.
On a recent Mech course the instructor suggested mechanical would be obsolete within a few years .I tend to agree
I like cycling as a mode of transport and leisure for its relative simplicity. I guess that's why I also prefer riding my steel bike as opposed to my carbon "best" bike.
I have no problem with other people using it, but I prefer mechanical.0 -
If you have a fixed budget - say £2k-£3k and want a race bike - whether you actually race or just want to do chain gangs and fast group rides - then surely mechanical and rim brakes is your best option.
You'll get a half decent frame, light components and some deep rim wheels for your money.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
+1 to this.DeVlaeminck said:If you have a fixed budget - say £2k-£3k and want a race bike - whether you actually race or just want to do chain gangs and fast group rides - then surely mechanical and rim brakes is your best option.
You'll get a half decent frame, light components and some deep rim wheels for your money.
Albeit 105 is perfectly functional for that, and 105 rim brakes will come out lighter than Ultegra disc by some margin. R8000 mechanical will still be available for some time by the sound of it as well. I would never want to race something I couldn't afford to repair / replace easily either.0 -
That new ultegra chainset though, wow, now there is a thing ugliness.0
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I thought the same until I had it my Derosa .elbowloh said:
I have no interest in electronic shifting. I have no desire to have to charge or check that the battery has charged before going for a ride. I know it's not much of a faff, but one I can't be arsed with.trevor.hall12 said:I'm surprised that anyone wants mechanical .It seems that they have noted Sram's success.
On a recent Mech course the instructor suggested mechanical would be obsolete within a few years .I tend to agree
I like cycling as a mode of transport and leisure for its relative simplicity. I guess that's why I also prefer riding my steel bike as opposed to my carbon "best" bike.
I have no problem with other people using it, but I prefer mechanical.
It went 4 years without missing a gear or needing any maibtainence ,does it get any simpler than that ?
As I have the battery % on my garmin there's no need to check it ,only charge it now and again .
Each to their own as ever
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Checking the battery is no more trouble than squeezing the tyres, only I do it far lass often.elbowloh said:
I have no interest in electronic shifting. I have no desire to have to charge or check that the battery has charged before going for a ride. I know it's not much of a faff, but one I can't be arsed with.trevor.hall12 said:I'm surprised that anyone wants mechanical .It seems that they have noted Sram's success.
On a recent Mech course the instructor suggested mechanical would be obsolete within a few years .I tend to agree
I like cycling as a mode of transport and leisure for its relative simplicity. I guess that's why I also prefer riding my steel bike as opposed to my carbon "best" bike.
I have no problem with other people using it, but I prefer mechanical.0 -
I don’t have to check my di2 battery before a ride. I have the charge level displayed on my Garmin,so at the end of a ride I can see what charge it is at. I plug it in if I need to then.
I wonder if elbowloh can be arsed with charging his lights, or his phone, or his head unit, some, or all of which I suspect he does much more regularly. I don’t see having to charge di2 once every 1500 miles or so an onerous task that I would put it off because I can’t be arsed.
Each to their own though.3
