New Shimano Dura Ace & Ultegra Di2 Groupsets

ibr17xvii

So what's everyone's thoughts?

My opinion FWIW is although I'm not surprised no mechanical option at the higher end is a big mistake especially on Ultegra. I've no stats whatsoever to back this up but surely mechanical outsells electronic even at Ultegra level?

I'd love to have Di2 on a winter bike so hopefully there might be some bargains to be had on "old" 11 speed stuff. In normal times shops would be reducing the 11 speed stuff to make way for the new stuff but I think availability might scupper that unfortunately.

akh

I was surprised at the lack of mechanical Ultegra. I'm now curious as to whether 105 will follow suit and all road 12 speed will be Di2.

I like the idea of wireless and built in bluetooth, and I'm glad they've stuck with an 11 tooth min sprocket on the cassette and freehub backwards compatibility. I'm not optimistic at real world pricing and availability though.

elbowloh

Campag Chorus 12 speed is mechanical, got that on my commuter last year. Rim brakes too.

DeVlaeminck

I'm surprised, I thought mechanical would remain an option at all levels longer than rim brakes.

At a time when prices have increased massively it takes away an option to save money and still have a reasonably top end groupset on your bike. Of course 105 is fine but I doubt many will want to fit it to their new Colnago or Look - many would still have been happy with mechanical Dura ace.

akh

DeVlaeminck said:

I'm surprised, I thought mechanical would remain an option at all levels longer than rim brakes.

At a time when prices have increased massively it takes away an option to save money and still have a reasonably top end groupset on your bike. Of course 105 is fine but I doubt many will want to fit it to their new Colnago or Look - many would still have been happy with mechanical Dura ace.

I definitely agree with this. I find it hard to believe it won't hurt sales; then again, Etap seems to have catapulted SRAM from almost nowhere a few years ago, to being an option on most bikes now, so there must be sales in it.

Ncovidius

It’s about time Shimano caught up with a 12 speed road option. Both sets do look very promising though. I can’t see too many normal people deliberately choosing the D.A. over the Ultegra though, given the apparent functional similarities, and difference in price. I’m not sure that having no cable / mechanical option on either set is the best idea either.

flasher

So DA rocks in at around £4k and weighs more than the previous generation..........the world's gone mad!

feelgoodlost

akh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I'm surprised, I thought mechanical would remain an option at all levels longer than rim brakes.

At a time when prices have increased massively it takes away an option to save money and still have a reasonably top end groupset on your bike. Of course 105 is fine but I doubt many will want to fit it to their new Colnago or Look - many would still have been happy with mechanical Dura ace.

I definitely agree with this. I find it hard to believe it won't hurt sales; then again, Etap seems to have catapulted SRAM from almost nowhere a few years ago, to being an option on most bikes now, so there must be sales in it.

SRAM red mechanical is still one of, if not the lightest groupset available - it was incredibly popular at the time and definitely still has it's place. There are countless stories of ETAP mechs just randomly failing. A friend has gone through about 2-3 of them!!

New Shimano stuff is pointless. 12 speed offers no significant improvement over 11sp. Can't see why you'd look to upgrade if you already have the previous gen of Di2.

DeVlaeminck

feelgoodlost said:

akh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I'm surprised, I thought mechanical would remain an option at all levels longer than rim brakes.

At a time when prices have increased massively it takes away an option to save money and still have a reasonably top end groupset on your bike. Of course 105 is fine but I doubt many will want to fit it to their new Colnago or Look - many would still have been happy with mechanical Dura ace.

I definitely agree with this. I find it hard to believe it won't hurt sales; then again, Etap seems to have catapulted SRAM from almost nowhere a few years ago, to being an option on most bikes now, so there must be sales in it.

SRAM red mechanical is still one of, if not the lightest groupset available - it was incredibly popular at the time and definitely still has it's place. There are countless stories of ETAP mechs just randomly failing. A friend has gone through about 2-3 of them!!

New Shimano stuff is pointless. 12 speed offers no significant improvement over 11sp. Can't see why you'd look to upgrade if you already have the previous gen of Di2.

I agree - for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

elbowloh

DeVlaeminck said:

feelgoodlost said:

akh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I'm surprised, I thought mechanical would remain an option at all levels longer than rim brakes.

At a time when prices have increased massively it takes away an option to save money and still have a reasonably top end groupset on your bike. Of course 105 is fine but I doubt many will want to fit it to their new Colnago or Look - many would still have been happy with mechanical Dura ace.

I definitely agree with this. I find it hard to believe it won't hurt sales; then again, Etap seems to have catapulted SRAM from almost nowhere a few years ago, to being an option on most bikes now, so there must be sales in it.

SRAM red mechanical is still one of, if not the lightest groupset available - it was incredibly popular at the time and definitely still has it's place. There are countless stories of ETAP mechs just randomly failing. A friend has gone through about 2-3 of them!!

New Shimano stuff is pointless. 12 speed offers no significant improvement over 11sp. Can't see why you'd look to upgrade if you already have the previous gen of Di2.

I agree - for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

Indeed, i was upgrading from 9 speed!

First.Aspect

Lack of back compatibility is going to be a pita in a couple of years when it comes to replacing broken components.

rwoofer

I'm really disappointed in no mechanical. For me there is something fundamentally jarring between electronic gearing and a human powered vehicle.

I'm going to have to look after my existing groupsets to make them last.

shirley_basso

When did you last wear out a non-replaceable mechanical component?

elbowloh

shirley_basso said:

When did you last wear out a non-replaceable mechanical component?

I've broken rear mechs in falls. How long will replacement mechanical 11 speed mechs be available for if i broke my 6800 mech?

Ben6899

Love my 7900, tbh.

The13thcog

I was surprised tbh. When I read there was no mechanical on DA I thought, oh...but then...oh OK, makes sense, flagship product etc.
But when I read its the same for Ultegra I was gobsmacked. It instantly hit me that bike prices, even for mediocre run of the mill ones sporting Ultegra will now be way higher.

I know Shimano will say that 105 is your mechanical option and that's fine. But by doing away with mechanical Ultegra, any person looking at say a £1500 bike with 105 on, will no longer be able to jump just a few hundred quid to £1800 - £2000 for a bike with upgraded mechanical Ultegra like they used to. Instead there will be a massive jump to £2500 if you want Ultegra, because it will only be available as Di2.

To me that's a game changer that I don't think people have quite understood. Shimano are actually forcing people to either buy a 'cheapish bike with 105 or spend way more than they would like to get the next level up in Ultegra.

If the new groups etc had been reduced in price then I could understand it. But they aren't. You're now looking at £2500 JUST for an Ultegra groupset....no frame, bars, wheels, tyres, seatpost, forks, bartape....

Pure greed if you ask me.

super_davo

I suppose the answer as to whether there will be a massive jump in price between 105 and Ultegra will be whether Shimano stop making 8000 series mechanical any time soon and if when they do they create a 105 Di2 to fill the gap.

Ribble just announced the Ultra aero bike you can't get hold of till March next year with the base model being 8000 series mechanical Ultegra. Which suggests to me there are no immediate plans to stop making it.

As to the change to 12 speed, the core advantage to me seems that you can have something like an 11-30 with tight one cog spacing at the top end of the cassette but with enough range to get up mountains. But the way they've designed the ratios, for me living in flatlands I'd lose a degree of tight spacing from 11 speed 12-25 for the sake of an 11 and a 30 I wouldn't use on 90% of rides. And when I do go somewhere properly hilly, on current 11 speed I can always stick an 11-30 or 11-32 on, and for rides like that where you're up or down all day I'd be unlikely to miss the 16 cog. So (much like Di2) the upgrades are as much about reducing maintenance as they are improvements in performance.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

But when I read its the same for Ultegra I was gobsmacked. It instantly hit me that bike prices, even for mediocre run of the mill ones sporting Ultegra will now be way higher.

I know Shimano will say that 105 is your mechanical option and that's fine. But by doing away with mechanical Ultegra, any person looking at say a £1500 bike with 105 on, will no longer be able to jump just a few hundred quid to £1800 - £2000 for a bike with upgraded mechanical Ultegra like they used to. Instead there will be a massive jump to £2500 if you want Ultegra, because it will only be available as Di2.

I hope I am wrong but this, combined with the focus now almost entirely on disc brakes, suggests that the bike industry is pushing even more towards the production and sale of complete bikes. There seems to be a move away from bikes at the entry level budget and more towards the mid to high range. Sticking electronic groups, disc and (often) carbon rims on a lot of the build options pushes the prices up nicely!

I think a lot of the big bike manufacturers may look to move away from the sale of frames which would mean they are also going to monopolise groupsets and further reduce the supply of components available to us regular buyers.

I may be doom-mongering here but it does seem as though many of the big brands are now intent on exploiting the massive interest in the sport that has grown over the last few years and are going after customers with bigger wallets and are pricing bikes accordingly.

andyrr

Ncovidius said:

It’s about time Shimano caught up with a 12 speed road option. Both sets do look very promising though. I can’t see too many normal people deliberately choosing the D.A. over the Ultegra though, given the apparent functional similarities, and difference in price. I’m not sure that having no cable / mechanical option on either set is the best idea either.

Haha, re “ I can’t see too many normal people deliberately choosing the D.A. over the Ultegra though ……..”
Just wait for the muppet, aka MF, to chime in with his tired “only clubbies choose to ride Ultegra” trope.

lochindaal

for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

Having recently moved to the 12-speed SRAM (all be it from 10speed) I disagree with this though wouldn't have before I got it. Combined with the change in front chain rings it gives a really good range and no dramatic jumps.

DeVlaeminck

lochindaal said:

for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

Having recently moved to the 12-speed SRAM (all be it from 10speed) I disagree with this though wouldn't have before I got it. Combined with the change in front chain rings it gives a really good range and no dramatic jumps.

I'm assuming going 12 from the previous groupset which was 11. I don't think the range of gears was ever an issue for 99% of people using 11 speed so really it's just making the ratios slightly closer at (presumably) some kind of cost making everything a little thinner to fit that extra sprocket in the existing space.

First.Aspect

DeVlaeminck said:

lochindaal said:

for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

Having recently moved to the 12-speed SRAM (all be it from 10speed) I disagree with this though wouldn't have before I got it. Combined with the change in front chain rings it gives a really good range and no dramatic jumps.

I'm assuming going 12 from the previous groupset which was 11. I don't think the range of gears was ever an issue for 99% of people using 11 speed so really it's just making the ratios slightly closer at (presumably) some kind of cost making everything a little thinner to fit that extra sprocket in the existing space.

This. I switch between 11 and 10 occasionally and even though I'm at the fussy end of the spectrum, I don't notice the difference.

I wish there were more groupset options available to be honest. The big three are really pushing products that people don't want, then telling them they are what people want because people are buying them. People are only buying them because there are no other options.

What's that Rotor groupset like?

andyrr

Crazy money for shifters - £600 for hydro, £700 for mechanical! That’s per shifter. Similar for a rear mech. It’s like once electronics are involved in what was relatively simple mechanical components they believe our perception of what these components do is lost and they’ve become complex feats of electronic engineering and thus we need to stump up for the inflated prices.
I’ve a few DA components on my bikes (older ones when I raced and was bothered about top-end componentry) but there’s no way now I’d be buying DA or probably even Ultegra.

super_davo

lochindaal said:

for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

Having recently moved to the 12-speed SRAM (all be it from 10speed) I disagree with this though wouldn't have before I got it. Combined with the change in front chain rings it gives a really good range and no dramatic jumps.

SRAM have got a bit different on the gearing with smaller chainsets and cassettes starting from 10. It sounds like a good idea for real world cyclists even if the pros don't like it.

Both Shimano and Campag have used 12 speed essentially to cut the amount of cassette options down, so you can have one cassette you can use everywhere. The tightest cassette they are doing in 12 speed is an 11-30, and the only difference between an 11-30 11 speed and 12 is that you get a 16 cog on the 12. Hence 'you're unlikely to tell the difference' - for 11 of the 12 cogs, there literally is no difference!

So for me the way they have implemented 12 speed is a bit "meh" hence no compelling reason to upgrade, nor the Di2 - though the improvements in disc braking sound good.

ibr17xvii

First.Aspect said:

DeVlaeminck said:

lochindaal said:

for most of us going 12 speed offers nothing unless we are running a single front ring.

Having recently moved to the 12-speed SRAM (all be it from 10speed) I disagree with this though wouldn't have before I got it. Combined with the change in front chain rings it gives a really good range and no dramatic jumps.

I'm assuming going 12 from the previous groupset which was 11. I don't think the range of gears was ever an issue for 99% of people using 11 speed so really it's just making the ratios slightly closer at (presumably) some kind of cost making everything a little thinner to fit that extra sprocket in the existing space.

This. I switch between 11 and 10 occasionally and even though I'm at the fussy end of the spectrum, I don't notice the difference.

I wish there were more groupset options available to be honest. The big three are really pushing products that people don't want, then telling them they are what people want because people are buying them. People are only buying them because there are no other options.

What's that Rotor groupset like?

Interesting cos I have a bike with 10 speed Tiagra on it & I absolutely notice the difference when I go back to 11 speed although to be fair it does have different ratios on it than my other bikes so that could account for some of it.

Would I notice difference between 11 & 12 speed? Probably not but at those prices I won't be finding out any time soon.

shirley_basso

I'm on 11 speed on both bikes (105 and ultegra Di2) and mainly ride on the flat, so close spacing on tight cassettes is quite nice (I ride 52/36 and 11/25). 11-30 would be a step back for me.

I'll admit I don't spend anything on bike kit at the momemt, but I really struggle to get excited by this new launch. And the new Ultegra chainset is absolutely hideous.

Even the 9000 -> 9100 had me quite excited by the new colours, new brakes, new rear mech for mechanical.

This 'evolution' is pretty meh.

PMark

The shifting performance is meant to be better from the reviews I have seen (largely down to new hyperglide tec). But I would have personally preferred 11 speed as Shimano 12 speed doesn’t have the range of SRAM’s, so no advantage for me. I am looking at building up a fully internal cable gravel bike using a winspace frame and at the moment SRAM axis is looking like by far the best option. Although I know you have been able to mix and match Di2 generations previously, so will be interesting if you can use the new RD in an 11 speed setup. Which I would quite like as will mean less wires.

DeVlaeminck

£600-700 for single shifter - I mean I've had shifters break I'm sure we all have if we've been riding long - that is just getting ridiculous. Slide out on a corner and you could be looking at a grand for a shifter and a mech.

The13thcog

DeVlaeminck said:

£600-700 for single shifter - I mean I've had shifters break I'm sure we all have if we've been riding long - that is just getting ridiculous. Slide out on a corner and you could be looking at a grand for a shifter and a mech.

I agree. Its almost like Shimano believe we are all new riders who just accept these prices, but having come from mechanical and done exactly this (slid down the road and busted shifters) replacing them hurt (few hundred quid) but didn't hurt like this would. Nearly a grand for a couple of shifters? ridiculous. You can pick up an entire bike for that at the moment.
Maybe its time to buy in bulk and store the current 105/Ultegra/DA components for the future.

The13thcog

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

But when I read its the same for Ultegra I was gobsmacked. It instantly hit me that bike prices, even for mediocre run of the mill ones sporting Ultegra will now be way higher.

I know Shimano will say that 105 is your mechanical option and that's fine. But by doing away with mechanical Ultegra, any person looking at say a £1500 bike with 105 on, will no longer be able to jump just a few hundred quid to £1800 - £2000 for a bike with upgraded mechanical Ultegra like they used to. Instead there will be a massive jump to £2500 if you want Ultegra, because it will only be available as Di2.

I hope I am wrong but this, combined with the focus now almost entirely on disc brakes, suggests that the bike industry is pushing even more towards the production and sale of complete bikes. There seems to be a move away from bikes at the entry level budget and more towards the mid to high range. Sticking electronic groups, disc and (often) carbon rims on a lot of the build options pushes the prices up nicely!

I think a lot of the big bike manufacturers may look to move away from the sale of frames which would mean they are also going to monopolise groupsets and further reduce the supply of components available to us regular buyers.

I may be doom-mongering here but it does seem as though many of the big brands are now intent on exploiting the massive interest in the sport that has grown over the last few years and are going after customers with bigger wallets and are pricing bikes accordingly.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Currently there is a nice upward curve in prices and easy to set your budget, but this new groupset skips that process and instead 'jumps' to mid/high real quick.

Only yesterday I was reading about new bike builds with the new group sets on and starting prices were £6/7k!! Its just becoming a joke for what should be a relative in-expensive pastime.

elbowloh

The13thcog said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

But when I read its the same for Ultegra I was gobsmacked. It instantly hit me that bike prices, even for mediocre run of the mill ones sporting Ultegra will now be way higher.

I know Shimano will say that 105 is your mechanical option and that's fine. But by doing away with mechanical Ultegra, any person looking at say a £1500 bike with 105 on, will no longer be able to jump just a few hundred quid to £1800 - £2000 for a bike with upgraded mechanical Ultegra like they used to. Instead there will be a massive jump to £2500 if you want Ultegra, because it will only be available as Di2.

I hope I am wrong but this, combined with the focus now almost entirely on disc brakes, suggests that the bike industry is pushing even more towards the production and sale of complete bikes. There seems to be a move away from bikes at the entry level budget and more towards the mid to high range. Sticking electronic groups, disc and (often) carbon rims on a lot of the build options pushes the prices up nicely!

I think a lot of the big bike manufacturers may look to move away from the sale of frames which would mean they are also going to monopolise groupsets and further reduce the supply of components available to us regular buyers.

I may be doom-mongering here but it does seem as though many of the big brands are now intent on exploiting the massive interest in the sport that has grown over the last few years and are going after customers with bigger wallets and are pricing bikes accordingly.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Currently there is a nice upward curve in prices and easy to set your budget, but this new groupset skips that process and instead 'jumps' to mid/high real quick.

Only yesterday I was reading about new bike builds with the new group sets on and starting prices were £6/7k!! Its just becoming a joke for what should be a relative in-expensive pastime.

My first carbon roadbike with ultegra (6700) cost about than £1600 in around 2012.
Now carbon bikes with ultegra are more like £2500-£3500