Abolish daylight saving?

briantrumpet

Once upon a time it would have been easy to move to Central European Time: move to Central Europe.

I think this is just all proxy for people hating short days, and they'll never be happy, whatever the clock says. Personally I find it more depressing having to go to work in the dark than coming home in the dark. They did double BST in the late 1960s, but it didn't last.

pinno

briantrumpet said:

I think this is just all proxy for people hating short days, and they'll never be happy...

But I get nothing done in the morning and as SB said, winter temps don't lure me out - even of we went back 2 hours in winter, if it's bad weather, i'm not pedalling outdoors first thing. I could get a 1 hour ride and a shower in before helping get the girls together IF I got up at 5.45am (it would still be dark). Fcuk that. I could however, use that hour at the end of the day after the school run, so could the girls.

As far as farming is concerned, it's irrelevant.

I suffer SAD and it would actually make a helluva difference for me and many others. So it actually might make me happier.

Stevo_666 said:

I think you mean make daylight savings permanent Mr. P?

Yes, perhaps I should have worded it differently to avoid people going into pedant mode.

Pross

Mentioning SAD, I would have thought the days of daylight when you wake up would be better for that than having it light longer at the end of the day. I thought it was waking in darkness that was the main cause.

pinno

Pross said:

Mentioning SAD, I would have thought the days of daylight when you wake up would be better for that than having it light longer at the end of the day. I thought it was waking in darkness that was the main cause.

The clocks would have to go back 2 hours for me to wake up in daylight.

rick_chasey

pinno said:

briantrumpet said:

I think this is just all proxy for people hating short days, and they'll never be happy...

But I get nothing done in the morning and as SB said, winter temps don't lure me out - even of we went back 2 hours in winter, if it's bad weather, i'm not pedalling outdoors first thing. I could get a 1 hour ride and a shower in before helping get the girls together IF I got up at 5.45am (it would still be dark). Fcuk that. I could however, use that hour at the end of the day after the school run, so could the girls.

As far as farming is concerned, it's irrelevant.

I suffer SAD and it would actually make a helluva difference for me and many others. So it actually might make me happier.

Stevo_666 said:

I think you mean make daylight savings permanent Mr. P?

Yes, perhaps I should have worded it differently to avoid people going into pedant mode.

I suffer from SAD too but I get more done in the morning than the rest of my day.

I also, pre corona anyway, get up at 5.45...

I don't think where the hours fall in the day makes much difference, at least not to me.

Certainly down south in the winter you usually have one leg of your commute in light/partial light, so I can see the attraction for keeping the clock change.

I think whoever said moaning about daylight saving as a proxy for the shortening of the days probably have it right.

It's miserable in the dark.

DeVlaeminck

What we really need are for scientists to invent an artificial sun for the Winter.

Stevo_666

My OH bought a SAD light and thinks it works quite well.

First.Aspect

Stevo_666 said:

My OH bought a SAD light and thinks it works quite well.

I don't think SAD exists. It is just another way of saying winter is shjt.

Personally I have found that a winter at home affords more time outside when it is good weather. Way better than night time commutes.

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

My OH bought a SAD light and thinks it works quite well.

I don't think SAD exists. It is just another way of saying winter is shjt.

Personally I have found that a winter at home affords more time outside when it is good weather. Way better than night time commutes.

So, your saying you felt better when you were exposed to more daylight? 🤔

briantrumpet

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

My OH bought a SAD light and thinks it works quite well.

I don't think SAD exists. It is just another way of saying winter is shjt.

Personally I have found that a winter at home affords more time outside when it is good weather. Way better than night time commutes.

I have various strategies: enjoy the excuse to have longer evening indoors and not feeling guilty about not getting out on the bike; when the clock goes back, tell myself it's only nine weeks until the evenings will start drawing out; make the most of the daylight when it's there and appreciate the good days, however few.

OK, maybe I'm never going to be a motivational speaker, but it helps me get through to the spring.

tl;dr Yes, winter is ABS (a bit shït), but it's not that bad, and, like wind, will pass.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

My OH bought a SAD light and thinks it works quite well.

I don't think SAD exists. It is just another way of saying winter is shjt.

Personally I have found that a winter at home affords more time outside when it is good weather. Way better than night time commutes.

So, your saying you felt better when you were exposed to more daylight? 🤔

Yup. But is it a disorder?

rick_chasey

Yeah. That’s why it’s called a disorder.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

Yeah. That’s why it’s called a disorder.

Not if it is entirely normal.

rick_chasey

So you don’t experience SAD so therefore it’s not a disorder, is that the logic here?

pinno

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Yeah. That’s why it’s called a disorder.

Not if it is entirely normal.

Are you implying that it's quite normal to experience a degree of SAD? I think that's what your trying to say.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

So you don’t experience SAD so therefore it’s not a disorder, is that the logic here?

No

First.Aspect

pinno said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Yeah. That’s why it’s called a disorder.

Not if it is entirely normal.

Are you implying that it's quite normal to experience a degree of SAD? I think that's what your trying to say.

Yes

Pross

rick_chasey said:

So you don’t experience SAD so therefore it’s not a disorder, is that the logic here?

I'm reading the complete opposite i.e. everyone gets it so it isn't a disorder

pinno

First.Aspect said:

pinno said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Yeah. That’s why it’s called a disorder.

Not if it is entirely normal.

Are you implying that it's quite normal to experience a degree of SAD? I think that's what your trying to say.

Yes

I agree.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

So you don’t experience SAD so therefore it’s not a disorder, is that the logic here?

I'm reading the complete opposite i.e. everyone gets it so it isn't a disorder

Me too.

I don't think anyone likes winter as whole (ignoring skiing holidays for those who like them), apart from masochists, and it's mostly a case of muddling through the relative misery the best way one can. In affluent countries, it's not the existential threat it once was (the book 'Une soupe des herbes sauvages' abut survival in the French Alps in the early 20th century makes you realise how close death was through the winter back then for many people - starvation was a real threat), but it's never going to be as easy as the other seasons.

rick_chasey

Not everyone gets it.

Not liking winter is not SAD.

FA has it the wrong way around. It’s a disorder so not everyone gets it.

I’d suggest the thing he sees everyone having probably isn’t the disorder.

A bit like everyone saying they don’t get on with gluten vs coeliacs.

rjsterry

briantrumpet said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

So you don’t experience SAD so therefore it’s not a disorder, is that the logic here?

I'm reading the complete opposite i.e. everyone gets it so it isn't a disorder

Me too.

I don't think anyone likes winter as whole (ignoring skiing holidays for those who like them), apart from masochists, and it's mostly a case of muddling through the relative misery the best way one can. In affluent countries, it's not the existential threat it once was (the book 'Une soupe des herbes sauvages' abut survival in the French Alps in the early 20th century makes you realise how close death was through the winter back then for many people - starvation was a real threat), but it's never going to be as easy as the other seasons.

I like winter. I'm not bothered about skiing. The worst bit of the last winter was that it was too warm and therefore never stopped f***ing raining.

pinno

rick_chasey said:

Not everyone gets it.

Not liking winter is not SAD.

FA has it the wrong way around. It’s a disorder so not everyone gets it.

Surely it's on a spectrum depending on the severity.
If it's effects are severe, then it could be deemed as a disorder.
Whereas, if you feel a bit down but it doesn't hinder you in any tangible way, you can't deem it as a disorder.

And there is a huge grey area in between.

rjsterry

pinno said:

rick_chasey said:

Not everyone gets it.

Not liking winter is not SAD.

FA has it the wrong way around. It’s a disorder so not everyone gets it.

Surely it's on a spectrum depending on the severity.
If it's effects are severe, then it could be deemed as a disorder.
Whereas, if you feel a bit down but it doesn't hinder you in any tangible way, you can't deem it as a disorder.

And there is a huge grey area in between.

This conversation sounds an awful lot like when people confuse depression with 'feeling a bit down'.

pinno

rjsterry said:

pinno said:

rick_chasey said:

Not everyone gets it.

Not liking winter is not SAD.

FA has it the wrong way around. It’s a disorder so not everyone gets it.

Surely it's on a spectrum depending on the severity.
If it's effects are severe, then it could be deemed as a disorder.
Whereas, if you feel a bit down but it doesn't hinder you in any tangible way, you can't deem it as a disorder.

And there is a huge grey area in between.

This conversation sounds an awful lot like when people confuse depression with 'feeling a bit down'.

The point I was making.

First.Aspect

pinno said:

rjsterry said:

pinno said:

rick_chasey said:

Not everyone gets it.

Not liking winter is not SAD.

FA has it the wrong way around. It’s a disorder so not everyone gets it.

Surely it's on a spectrum depending on the severity.
If it's effects are severe, then it could be deemed as a disorder.
Whereas, if you feel a bit down but it doesn't hinder you in any tangible way, you can't deem it as a disorder.

And there is a huge grey area in between.

This conversation sounds an awful lot like when people confuse depression with 'feeling a bit down'.

The point I was making.

No one is suggesting that people don't get depressed. I can write you a memoir on that. But if SAD was really a light-based condition, you would see more of it the further north people live. You don't.

So treating depression with a desk lamp reminds me of treating tendinitis with a swirly pattern IR laser.

The point I was making.

rjsterry

A quick Google threw up an incidence of 8% in Sweden compared with 3% in the UK. I don't think worldwide data is that robust as it is so dependent on self-reported, so who knows, but NICE seem to be convinced and I would imagine they've researched more thoroughly than both of us.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

A quick Google threw up an incidence of 8% in Sweden compared with 3% in the UK. I don't think worldwide data is that robust as it is so dependent on self-reported, so who knows, but NICE seem to be convinced and I would imagine they've researched more thoroughly than both of us.

We had homeopathy on the NHS didn't we?

First.Aspect

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-finds-seasonal-affective-disorder-doesn-t-exist/

elbowloh

I first heard about SAD in Northern Exposure, so it must be true.