Buying in France

dabber

We've had a 3 bedroomed house in southwest France - department of the Lot (46) - since 2008. We don't rent it out.
Typically, we go there 4 times a year... 3 weeks or so around end of March, 4 weeks mid May/June, 6 weeks July/August, 3 to 4 weeks October.
We close the house down for winter on that last visit, drain all the water down as it can get really cold there in the winter.
The journey is around 640 miles door to door.... about 100 miles to Dover then about 540 miles from Calais to the house which takes about 9 hours on average.
Up to 2 years ago I drove the whole thing in a day. Then, after returning to the UK 2 years ago I suffered a minor pulmonary embolism which was put down to DVT type effects of the non-stop drive. That taught me a lesson and we now make an overnight stop in the Orleans area. Fortunately I escaped the scare without any lasting damage.
This distance problem wouldn't affect Pross as the area he is looking at is a lot nearer.
We don't fly there as we always have the car loaded with the "kitchen sink" and bikes.

We have good neighbours - French,Belgian and German and the house is in a little dead end chemin on the outskirts of a village. It's just below a ridge and has great views over the valley... every ride home is a cat 4 climb though.
The nearest shop is about 4 miles away.

Most of the things to consider have been mentioned already in this thread. Our purchase was pretty straightforward.
I'd say customer service is a bit flaky in France, maybe no worse than in the UK but it is certainly variable.
We try and involve ourselves in the village a bit and attend many of the various events.
We have about an acre of land which needs cutting...I have a sit-on for that. Usually we don't have anyone in to look after the garden but with covid we have got someone to cut the grass as we don't know when we can get back there.

Having said all of the above I'd say we've enjoyed the experience and it's been good fun. However, we've now decided it's time to sell... well, not really the "good" time because selling may be even more problematic now with brexit and covid but we do plan to look at putting on the market in the foreseeable future.
Tbh, I'm getting fed up driving all that way and, as has aleady been mentioned in this thread, having a house there does sort of tie you to going to the same place all the time. We'd like to travel other places now.

Edited to add:
We have never had any intention of moving there permanently. We like the place but wouldn't want to be there full time.
Also, where we are at least, it is very, very quiet in winter.You drive through villages with all the shutters closed and no one around.You wonder if anyone lives there.
Also,a lot of hotels and restaurants close over that period.

ugo.santalucia

Pross said:

We've had static caravans for years so are quite used to that. One of the attractions of buying in France is that you can get a house for about the same price as a reasonable caravan in the UK, you aren't at the whim of ground rent increases and don't have the threat of being kicked off the site if you don't buy a new £40k 'home' in 10 or 12 years.

Sure it is attractive. I would also factor in probable increases in taxation. Second homes seem an obvious and popular target once France decides to start reducing public debt, post Covid

briantrumpet

ugo.santalucia said:

Pross said:

We've had static caravans for years so are quite used to that. One of the attractions of buying in France is that you can get a house for about the same price as a reasonable caravan in the UK, you aren't at the whim of ground rent increases and don't have the threat of being kicked off the site if you don't buy a new £40k 'home' in 10 or 12 years.

Sure it is attractive. I would also factor in probable increases in taxation. Second homes seem an obvious and popular target once France decides to start reducing public debt, post Covid

It'll be an interesting one: there are about 1m British owners in France, and whilst an increase in tax might bring immediate revenue, if a sizeable proportion decided to sell, longer term tax revenue could drop, as well as decreases in tourism income and depressing prices considerably. Not that I'd necessarily trust politicians to make sensible long-term decisions... or even short-term ones.

rick_chasey

No experience of France but doing it in Italy we had a local broker who specialised in dealing with foreign owners, which was helpful as the property needed a lot of work.

Might be a bit of shitaly insurance but he was there mainly to make sure we weren’t being screwed over by the workers and helped navigate through the bureaucracy.

Not cheap but took most of the stress out.

TheBigBean

A few points to add from experience many years ago:
- The ferry crossing adds quite a lot of time to the whole journey especially when you add on loading/unloading time
- The ferries are sometimes delayed or cancelled due to weather and other factors. This can leave you stranded or, in the worst case, needing to drive via Dover/Calais
- If you get seasick it's not much fun
- You need to pay for them which adds cost to whole experience.

The upshot is that even though it is relatively close, popping over for the weekend becomes quite arduous.

surrey_commuter

briantrumpet said:

ugo.santalucia said:

Pross said:

We've had static caravans for years so are quite used to that. One of the attractions of buying in France is that you can get a house for about the same price as a reasonable caravan in the UK, you aren't at the whim of ground rent increases and don't have the threat of being kicked off the site if you don't buy a new £40k 'home' in 10 or 12 years.

Sure it is attractive. I would also factor in probable increases in taxation. Second homes seem an obvious and popular target once France decides to start reducing public debt, post Covid

It'll be an interesting one: there are about 1m British owners in France, and whilst an increase in tax might bring immediate revenue, if a sizeable proportion decided to sell, longer term tax revenue could drop, as well as decreases in tourism income and depressing prices considerably. Not that I'd necessarily trust politicians to make sensible long-term decisions... or even short-term ones.

Seems like a no brainier for a populist Govt to impose a tax of €1,000 p.a. on foreign (non-EU) owned property and bring in billions.

ugo.santalucia

briantrumpet said:

ugo.santalucia said:

Pross said:

We've had static caravans for years so are quite used to that. One of the attractions of buying in France is that you can get a house for about the same price as a reasonable caravan in the UK, you aren't at the whim of ground rent increases and don't have the threat of being kicked off the site if you don't buy a new £40k 'home' in 10 or 12 years.

Sure it is attractive. I would also factor in probable increases in taxation. Second homes seem an obvious and popular target once France decides to start reducing public debt, post Covid

It'll be an interesting one: there are about 1m British owners in France, and whilst an increase in tax might bring immediate revenue, if a sizeable proportion decided to sell, longer term tax revenue could drop, as well as decreases in tourism income and depressing prices considerably. Not that I'd necessarily trust politicians to make sensible long-term decisions... or even short-term ones.

You are talking about an administration that only gave AZ vaccine to under 65, but then the following week decided to give it only to over 55.
Makes BoJo U-turns look straight.

Second property taxation is always the least unpopular among voters... one of the not so many benefits of having wealth in the hands of few

surrey_commuter

ugo.santalucia said:

briantrumpet said:

ugo.santalucia said:

Pross said:

We've had static caravans for years so are quite used to that. One of the attractions of buying in France is that you can get a house for about the same price as a reasonable caravan in the UK, you aren't at the whim of ground rent increases and don't have the threat of being kicked off the site if you don't buy a new £40k 'home' in 10 or 12 years.

Sure it is attractive. I would also factor in probable increases in taxation. Second homes seem an obvious and popular target once France decides to start reducing public debt, post Covid

It'll be an interesting one: there are about 1m British owners in France, and whilst an increase in tax might bring immediate revenue, if a sizeable proportion decided to sell, longer term tax revenue could drop, as well as decreases in tourism income and depressing prices considerably. Not that I'd necessarily trust politicians to make sensible long-term decisions... or even short-term ones.

You are talking about an administration that only gave AZ vaccine to under 65, but then the following week decided to give it only to over 55.
Makes BoJo U-turns look straight.

Second property taxation is always the least unpopular among voters... one of the not so many benefits of having wealth in the hands of few

a tax on a non-hideable, illiquid asset only owned by people not entitled to vote would seem to be as close to perfect as it is possible to get. Plus you are hardly likely to see widespread public unrest in support of them

Pross

Thanks. Yes, I've been looking at the ferry options. In the past we've tended to drive to Dover, spend the night there and drive down the next day as the crossing is far cheaper. I've done the return journey in one go but after waking up the morning I had to drive home with a kidney stone, collapsing walking to the toilet block and then throwing up on the drive to the ferry I learned my lesson! I looked at the more direct crossings last night and they are quite a bit more and we are looking about 2.5 hour to drive to Poole or Portsmouth and a 10-12 hour overnighter to St Malo, 4 hours to Cherbourg and, I think, 6 hours to Caen with the drive at the other end obviously being dependent on the final location. We wouldn't really be considering trips less than a week I doubt but if we did it would probably be a flight. The other thing we need to consider on the ferry is taking the dogs - some have kennels on board, some dog friendly cabins but others you would have to leave them in the car which might be OK for Dover to Calais but less so for a 12 hour overnight journey from Portsmouth to St Malo.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

Thanks. Yes, I've been looking at the ferry options. In the past we've tended to drive to Dover, spend the night there and drive down the next day as the crossing is far cheaper. I've done the return journey in one go but after waking up the morning I had to drive home with a kidney stone, collapsing walking to the toilet block and then throwing up on the drive to the ferry I learned my lesson! I looked at the more direct crossings last night and they are quite a bit more and we are looking about 2.5 hour to drive to Poole or Portsmouth and a 10-12 hour overnighter to St Malo, 4 hours to Cherbourg and, I think, 6 hours to Caen with the drive at the other end obviously being dependent on the final location. We wouldn't really be considering trips less than a week I doubt but if we did it would probably be a flight. The other thing we need to consider on the ferry is taking the dogs - some have kennels on board, some dog friendly cabins but others you would have to leave them in the car which might be OK for Dover to Calais but less so for a 12 hour overnight journey from Portsmouth to St Malo.

I'd certainly not be pinning all my plans on Brittany Ferries - firstly because they have become silly expensive, but also because they always feel like they hang by a thread, heavily dependent on French subsidies.

womack

Another thing to consider if very remote is availability of services.

Obviously if you have the static you will be used to bottled gas but a lot of very remote places may be on a bore hole and septic tank.

For reference I reckon our place in Portugal probably cost us 1000 Euro a year to sit empty (Council tax, standing charges for water, electric, buildings and contents insurance and we also have a condo fee for a communal pool.

We are going down the same thought pattern as the poster with their place in France that after 20 years and with the Brexit obstructions it is time to sell.

Another thing to consider is the looming ETIAS which may or may not affect us.

As someone else has stated even Plymouth - Roscoff ferry is an overnight and not cheap.

I use this site for info on Portugal but there is a section for France also.
https://britishexpats.com/forum/europe-55/

briantrumpet

I think most places in France now should have been connected to mains drainage (which in many cases is a commune facility of reed beds). There's been a big push in France on getting water & sewerage updated.

Pross

briantrumpet said:

I think most places in France now should have been connected to mains drainage (which in many cases is a commune facility of reed beds). There's been a big push in France on getting water & sewerage updated.

Some of the places we looked at weren't connected and had wells but those were the places in need of renovation and we aren't interested in anything that needs more that a bit of decorating - I've got enough DIY tasks to avoid at home! The vast majority had mains connections, gas is the one thing I'm not sure about and I wasn't sure whether gas cookers and heating are commonplace or not over there (especially if electricity is cheap).

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

Thanks. Yes, I've been looking at the ferry options. In the past we've tended to drive to Dover, spend the night there and drive down the next day as the crossing is far cheaper. I've done the return journey in one go but after waking up the morning I had to drive home with a kidney stone, collapsing walking to the toilet block and then throwing up on the drive to the ferry I learned my lesson! I looked at the more direct crossings last night and they are quite a bit more and we are looking about 2.5 hour to drive to Poole or Portsmouth and a 10-12 hour overnighter to St Malo, 4 hours to Cherbourg and, I think, 6 hours to Caen with the drive at the other end obviously being dependent on the final location. We wouldn't really be considering trips less than a week I doubt but if we did it would probably be a flight. The other thing we need to consider on the ferry is taking the dogs - some have kennels on board, some dog friendly cabins but others you would have to leave them in the car which might be OK for Dover to Calais but less so for a 12 hour overnight journey from Portsmouth to St Malo.

You are made of sterner stuff than I if you would drive from Wales to Dover then across to Brittany from memory when I did that it was about 7 hours from Calais. You should check out how far south you can get in the same time as with the autoroute you could be with the poster above in SW France.

Pross

womack said:

Another thing to consider if very remote is availability of services.

Obviously if you have the static you will be used to bottled gas but a lot of very remote places may be on a bore hole and septic tank.

For reference I reckon our place in Portugal probably cost us 1000 Euro a year to sit empty (Council tax, standing charges for water, electric, buildings and contents insurance and we also have a condo fee for a communal pool.

We are going down the same thought pattern as the poster with their place in France that after 20 years and with the Brexit obstructions it is time to sell.

Another thing to consider is the looming ETIAS which may or may not affect us.

As someone else has stated even Plymouth - Roscoff ferry is an overnight and not cheap.

I use this site for info on Portugal but there is a section for France also.
https://britishexpats.com/forum/europe-55/

That seems quite reasonable, I think we were forking out around £3.5k a year in Council Tax, ground rent and insurance when we gave up our share of the caravan.

We've ruled out Plymouth - Roscoff as it tends to be that bit rougher than the crossings further up the Channel (the wife did a 'mini cruise' hen do from Plymouth to Santander and spent the whole time in her cabin being sick so any boat out of Plymouth is now an automatic no!).

Stevo_666

Financial stuff aside, Dabber makes a good point about whether you really want to go keep going back to the same place rather than travel & see different places. And there's the time factor - fine if you're retired or have contract work that allows you to spend a decent amount of time in your second home. For most of that probably wouldn't be so easy - definitely would not be practical for me while I'm working.

If the end game is living over there permanently then that's a slightly different question but might be worth taking a few medium term lets on different properties to get a feel for certain places/areas before you commit. As has been mentioned before, this is a pretty illiquid investment so once you're in, it's not easy to change.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

briantrumpet said:

I think most places in France now should have been connected to mains drainage (which in many cases is a commune facility of reed beds). There's been a big push in France on getting water & sewerage updated.

Some of the places we looked at weren't connected and had wells but those were the places in need of renovation and we aren't interested in anything that needs more that a bit of decorating - I've got enough DIY tasks to avoid at home! The vast majority had mains connections, gas is the one thing I'm not sure about and I wasn't sure whether gas cookers and heating are commonplace or not over there (especially if electricity is cheap).

Dunno re gas. I'd probably go 'lectric now anyway, and might well swap at some point.

womack

Pross said:

womack said:

Another thing to consider if very remote is availability of services.

Obviously if you have the static you will be used to bottled gas but a lot of very remote places may be on a bore hole and septic tank.

For reference I reckon our place in Portugal probably cost us 1000 Euro a year to sit empty (Council tax, standing charges for water, electric, buildings and contents insurance and we also have a condo fee for a communal pool.

We are going down the same thought pattern as the poster with their place in France that after 20 years and with the Brexit obstructions it is time to sell.

Another thing to consider is the looming ETIAS which may or may not affect us.

As someone else has stated even Plymouth - Roscoff ferry is an overnight and not cheap.

I use this site for info on Portugal but there is a section for France also.
https://britishexpats.com/forum/europe-55/

That seems quite reasonable, I think we were forking out around £3.5k a year in Council Tax, ground rent and insurance when we gave up our share of the caravan.

We've ruled out Plymouth - Roscoff as it tends to be that bit rougher than the crossings further up the Channel (the wife did a 'mini cruise' hen do from Plymouth to Santander and spent the whole time in her cabin being sick so any boat out of Plymouth is now an automatic no!).

Yes, seen some eyewatering ground rents quoted at certain parks. I suppose the advantage of a "second home" in Britain is it would be a lot easier to get to for frequent trips. A lot of people who drink in my local have places in North Wales so go most weekends (non covid times).

pblakeney

I don't see the attraction in tying yourself to a single location for holidays.
Just my personal opinion, and you did ask. 😉

TheBigBean

The working from holiday home question is an interesting one which the current rules aren't set up to deal with. If you work remotely permanently, you become taxable in the place that you physically work.

Equally, with all the passporting discussions due to Brexit, it is worth noting that someone working in London on something happening in the EU is largely regulated in the UK where the work is taking place (the exception being soliciting/advertising for work which is considered in take place in the EU).

All of this points towards working remotely requiring a relevant work visa; however, for years people have visited places on business and done some actual work on their laptops in the evening or done some work whilst on holiday, and no authorities have ever complained, so I imagine this will continue provided that people stay within the tourist visa restrictions and don't start having business meetings.

briantrumpet

womack said:

Pross said:

womack said:

Another thing to consider if very remote is availability of services.

Obviously if you have the static you will be used to bottled gas but a lot of very remote places may be on a bore hole and septic tank.

For reference I reckon our place in Portugal probably cost us 1000 Euro a year to sit empty (Council tax, standing charges for water, electric, buildings and contents insurance and we also have a condo fee for a communal pool.

We are going down the same thought pattern as the poster with their place in France that after 20 years and with the Brexit obstructions it is time to sell.

Another thing to consider is the looming ETIAS which may or may not affect us.

As someone else has stated even Plymouth - Roscoff ferry is an overnight and not cheap.

I use this site for info on Portugal but there is a section for France also.
https://britishexpats.com/forum/europe-55/

That seems quite reasonable, I think we were forking out around £3.5k a year in Council Tax, ground rent and insurance when we gave up our share of the caravan.

We've ruled out Plymouth - Roscoff as it tends to be that bit rougher than the crossings further up the Channel (the wife did a 'mini cruise' hen do from Plymouth to Santander and spent the whole time in her cabin being sick so any boat out of Plymouth is now an automatic no!).

Yes, seen some eyewatering ground rents quoted at certain parks. I suppose the advantage of a "second home" in Britain is it would be a lot easier to get to for frequent trips. A lot of people who drink in my local have places in North Wales so go most weekends (non covid times).

But then, a UK holiday home is going to be eye-wateringly expensive if it's somewhere nice. I'd vaguely wondered about the Lake District, as somewhere I love, but it's heaving with tourists (I'd be one of them), it's still a pain to get to (from Devon), a similar house would cost about 4x as much, and the rates etc would be about 3x as much. I'd pretty much have to rent it out in between to justify it, whereas the French house is just mine, and it stays locked in between my visits. I've done about 70 weeks over there in eight years.

Not sure I'd have the courage to do it post-Brexit (and seven years older), but I'm very glad I did do it when I did.

Incidentally, I have registered a French 'will' for the house there, to save complications. Up till now, UK wills should have been respected for UK citizens, but a French will should guard against undue difficulties.

ddraver

Way upthread now but I lived a few streets out from Central Chamonix and it still had bottled gas. Seems to be a French thing.

2 of us went a whole summer season on a 10 ~ 15 kg bottle.

briantrumpet

ddraver said:

Way upthread now but I lived a few streets out from Central Chamonix and it still had bottled gas. Seems to be a French thing.

2 of us went a whole summer season on a 10 ~ 15 kg bottle.

Yes, it's as cheap as les chips to cook with. Bottle lasts me probably 12 weeks.

davep1

Pross said:

Thanks. Yes, I've been looking at the ferry options. In the past we've tended to drive to Dover, spend the night there and drive down the next day as the crossing is far cheaper. I've done the return journey in one go but after waking up the morning I had to drive home with a kidney stone, collapsing walking to the toilet block and then throwing up on the drive to the ferry I learned my lesson! I looked at the more direct crossings last night and they are quite a bit more and we are looking about 2.5 hour to drive to Poole or Portsmouth and a 10-12 hour overnighter to St Malo, 4 hours to Cherbourg and, I think, 6 hours to Caen with the drive at the other end obviously being dependent on the final location. We wouldn't really be considering trips less than a week I doubt but if we did it would probably be a flight. The other thing we need to consider on the ferry is taking the dogs - some have kennels on board, some dog friendly cabins but others you would have to leave them in the car which might be OK for Dover to Calais but less so for a 12 hour overnight journey from Portsmouth to St Malo.

We've had a place in Italy for over 12 years. We don't get to spend long there sadly; I only get 4 weeks holiday a year, and yes I would like to go other places, but every time we go back to our little house, it feels so special the regrets get forgotten. The kids have grown up knowing a different culture, and my wife spent a couple of summers out there with the kids when I came and went.

Not sure how Brexit and any changes to travelling post covid will effect how we use the place in future. We wanted to spend longer out there when we retired, but always felt we'd keep a property in the UK. We've met several people who sold everything when they moved to Europe, and when their dreams didn't pan out, they have struggled to get back in to the UK property market.

We never bought it as an investment, I like to think if we sold it we'd get some of our money back, maybe quite a bit. You just don't know how long the sale will take, and you have to hope the buyer sees what you see in the place.

I quoted your thread above because we have found flying out to not be as easy as you hope. It takes at least 8 hours door to door, and that's when I can persuade the missus we don't need to be at the airport 4 hours before the flight! And although there are options on which airport to fly in and out of to save a few quid, they are usually further out than the more direct routes. You have hassle of airport parking, hiring a car at the other end...

We tend to drive in the summer, it's a good 20 hours behind the wheel, so we always stop one night, sometimes 2 or 3, which actually adds to the adventure and discovery. I've managed to ride the Stelvio on one of our drives, and hope to do the Gotthard next time we drive.

pblakeney

davep1 said:

We wanted to spend longer out there when we retired, but always felt we'd keep a property in the UK. We've met several people who sold everything when they moved to Europe, and when their dreams didn't pan out, they have struggled to get back in to the UK property market.

A conversation with someone who had emigrated went along the lines of - Yes, emigrate but keep and rent out your UK property. Pays for itself and is a safety net.

rjsterry

pblakeney said:

I don't see the attraction in tying yourself to a single location for holidays.
Just my personal opinion, and you did ask. 😉

We've now been heading to the same bit of East Devon for well over 10 years and have not got to the point where we feel like we've run out of things to do down there. It's given us the chance to really get to know the area rather than just 'doing the highlights' on a brief visit.

davidof

Stevo_666 said:

As has been mentioned before, this is a pretty illiquid investment so once you're in, it's not easy to change.

I can't emphasize this enough. A lot of Brits expect things to be like at home. I hear my cousins buying and selling houses in the UK like it is monopoly. Not so in France. Buying a house is a big deal and people take a long time to make a decision and it can it a long time to sell, years rather than months although there are exceptions. It is not just a question of lowering the price, a house at fair value, or even cheap, can take a long time to sell.

If you are buying with someone else look at the tax and inheritance implications. You can even inherit debts in Southern Europe. Papa really did leave his kids a loan !

You have no right to a view. Someone can stick up a tower block in front of your house blocking your view of Mont Blanc if he can get planning permission. So check what is zoned for the land around you.

Also the houses Brits like often don't appeal to the local market. So if the foreign buyers vanish it can be difficult to sell.

Personally, I wouldn't get "big eyes" looking at cheap isolated properties but would go for the smallest place with the least amount of land that is practical in an area with some appeal - not the Creuse or some godforsaken department. Unless you are a mega keen gardener don't get a lot of land. Stuff grows like in the Amazon here. South of the Loire it is "summer - that is UK summer temperatures" from March to November. I"m sitting outside in a t-shirt working at the moment.

Somewhere with communication links: airport, motorway, trains. Not too far from water: lake, river, sea. If you are a cyclist you want to be near mountains too.

Oh French neighbour disputes can reach world war proportions. You need good neighbours.

Pross

Certainly not looking for anything big or even thinking of it as an investment. We would hopefully be buying without any need to borrow from money received from an inheritance (ironically due to Covid). My daughter would put her cut in for now and we would buy her out when she is ready to look for a house for herself. If we eventually get bored there would be no major urgency to sell up and also no compulsion to go there if we fancied a holiday somewhere else for a change. We spent about 15 years going to Devon and the last couple of years to West Wales where the inlaws have had their caravan plus a few camping trips (to France) so are a bit boring and creatures of habit. We tend to like just getting away from it all and relaxing for a couple of weeks.

The wife gets a lot of holiday to make up for her low salary and I can easily work remotely which I was doing most of the time even pre-Covid (one of my team was based in Austria for 4 years and my Director regularly spends several weeks at a time out in Canada) so it would be possible to spend maybe 4 weeks in one go out there in the summer albeit with me working for part of that time.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

pblakeney said:

I don't see the attraction in tying yourself to a single location for holidays.
Just my personal opinion, and you did ask. 😉

We've now been heading to the same bit of East Devon for well over 10 years and have not got to the point where we feel like we've run out of things to do down there. It's given us the chance to really get to know the area rather than just 'doing the highlights' on a brief visit.

Vive la difference. 😉

ugo.santalucia

Pross said:

We tend to like just getting away from it all and relaxing for a couple of weeks.
.

I find that a couple of weeks is the very minimum I am prepared to stay, if I go through the hassle of driving through the Channel.
The cost of these car trips is exorbitant... driving to the north of Italy is about 500 quid return, if you don't stay overnight in France, otherwise a lot more.

Driving to Brittany is quite a hassle... either you take the overnight ferry, which is expensive and takes forever, or you drive from Calais and it's quite a long drive.

The only time I went there with a bike, I didn't find the cycling mind boggling... nowhere near as good as Wales, for example, or Devon, as you mention. We were staying just outside St. Malo, for reference.
I did enjoy cycling among the vineyards in the Loire valley more, for reference.

Spanner in the works... I found Germany amazing for cycling... not sure about property prices...