Yet another reason not to go tubeless.

reaperactual

I've been 50/50 on converting to tubeless. Hear great things about how good it is and no punctured for years.

Except two of my riding Buddy's have had nothing but issues since they went tubeless, no punctures but what's the point when a number of lbs's haven't managed to set them up properly in the first place.

The latest is an lbs did the conversion for one Buddy at £40 per tyre, he pointed out a ding on the rear rim and the lbs said it'll be fine.

6 months on the rear isn't holding air so the same lbs have told him tubeless is only good for 6 months and has to be re done again?

He refused their offer so they are now saying the leak is from the original ding on the rim and they don't want to try and straighten it in fear of causing more damage and have charged him £20 to 'patch it' whatever that means?

£100 so far in 6 months for tubeless, that's a lifetimes supply of innertubes. Ive not had a puncture for over a year now so no wonder I've no faith in tubeless or bike shops in general.

Doubt anything is going to change my mind about going tubeless now, if I did it in future I definately wouldn't be letting any bike shop do it for me.

oxoman

Dont have problems with tubeless either mtb or road wheels. However my wheels are tubeless from the get go and not compatible or ghetto fix. Mates that have had issues have been ghetto fix, or wrong tyres. Surprising how many tyres leak sealant out of the side walls.

loltoride

I have not had a bike not tubeless for the last 6 years at least and to date no issues but does need redoing at least once per year. I would say your mate got ripped off £40 per wheel wow.

reaperactual

oxoman said:

Dont have problems with tubeless either mtb or road wheels. However my wheels are tubeless from the get go and not compatible or ghetto fix. Mates that have had issues have been ghetto fix, or wrong tyres. Surprising how many tyres leak sealant out of the side walls.

To be fair my other Buddy had a new Surley 3" rear tyre fitted after a few previous issues with tubeless set up on a different tyre.

He had it done at Evans who said it was a faulty valve, they charged him £75 for the trye and £20 for tubeless and it's been fine for around a year.

I thought he paid a lot for the tyre itself but the cost of tubeless was reasonable and was set up properly first time.

reaperactual

loltoride said:

I have not had a bike not tubeless for the last 6 years at least and to date no issues but does need redoing at least once per year. I would say your mate got ripped off £40 per wheel wow.

I told my Mate £40 each was a bit steep. Took them 4 days to get round to doing it. Later found out they often outsource the repair/maintenance jobs to another lbs so who knows if they actually did it initially, maybe they added their fee on top and did say it'll need re-doing every 6 months.

I know someone else who had it done elsewhere and hasn't had any issues with tubless tyres for the last 2+ years, that lbs even threw in a tubeless repair kit for free.

loltoride

reaperactual said:

loltoride said:

I have not had a bike not tubeless for the last 6 years at least and to date no issues but does need redoing at least once per year. I would say your mate got ripped off £40 per wheel wow.

I told my Mate £40 each was a bit steep. Took them 4 days to get round to doing it. Later found out they often outsource the repair/maintenance jobs to another lbs so who knows if they actually did it initially, maybe they added their fee on top and did say it'll need re-doing every 6 months.

I know someone else who had it done elsewhere and hasn't had any issues with tubless tyres for the last 2+ years, that lbs even threw in a tubeless repair kit for free.

I don't think I have ever paid but would be happy with £40-50 including kit unfortunately I get most things done at a LBS some have been good but more bad experiences.

Dorset_Boy

I think the issue in the OP is more to do with the LBS than tubeless.

Charlie_Croker

I'm too in that undecided group right now. I feel no urge to dive head long into going tubeless and lighten my wallet somewhat as things stand. Still using tubes, as I have done all my life so far and following the tubeless problems folk have with interest.
For me it's a question of:
a) Do I need to change, am I getting so many punctures that I feel I need to do something about it?
b) Can the outlay/cost/difference be justified?

Watching the pros (racing) on the telly, they do seem to get an awful lot of punctures, all things considered. It would be interesting to see the stats of punctures per stage per rider. Just for reference.

I remain undecided, reading this thread I put together myself a small for and against list as I see it

Tubeless:

For			Against
No punctures*	
			£40 per wheel (cost)	
			wheel needs to be perfect 
			doesn't last more than 6/12months
DIY			LBS ability/competence 
			Reduced tyre choice 
Ease of repair**	Ease of repair**

*Reduction of on-road/trail work
** Repairing a tubed puncture is fairly consistant, 
      a tubeless puncture has many more 'what ifs'

I ride both road and trail on different bicycles BTW

gomezz

Been tubeless for 4 years did it myself with a home made inflator , changed tires a few times, renewed sealant a few times. Would not bike any other way and I'm an old fart. All is good.

Charlie_Croker

gomezz said:

Been tubeless for 4 years did it myself with a home made inflator , changed tires a few times, renewed sealant a few times. Would not bike any other way and I'm an old fart. All is good.

Tell us more about the home made inflator

joe_totale-2

In my experience:

Road - It's alright but it's not really any better than tubes. Have had punctures seal but have also had to bung a tube in when nothing else would work.

Off Road/CX - It's great and I won't go back to tubes, running at super low pressures especially in muddy CX races is great.

Being confident in using tyre worms/dynaplug definitely helps.

reaperactual

Good feedback and all relevant points for and against tubeless.

Mistrust and lack of faith after my own, friends and other various negative experiences I hear about with bike shops in general is a part of the decision not going tubeless. Also not having the confidence having never done it or knowing fully what's involved plays it's part.

Cost is a factor but suppose doing it at home could make it reasonable cost wise and can make sure it's done properly and regularly maintained does sway opinion towards giving it a try.

The difficult part deciding is running innertubes ain't that bad or something that can't be easily fixed or sorted out even trailside if necessary. Always carry a spare tube and repair kit so never had the long walk home.

Dorset_Boy

I put tubeless on the bike I use in winter back in October / November time. I set it all up myself - Conti 5000 TLs on DT Swiss PR1400s. Very easy to seat the tyres (using my normal track pump), no swearing at all involved, which surprised me!
I made a mess putting the sealant in the second tyre (caused some swearing!) but was resolved easily enough. (Always put the sealant in whilst outside!)
Quite large puncture sealed on one of first rides but didn't notice at all during the ride. Put in dynaplug worm after cleaning bike. So far no issues since.
I'd say ride quality is improved over GP5000s with tubes, and the rolling is quieter, and the tyres are quick.

Biggest drawback is the initial cost:
Rim tape
New valves
Sealant
New Tyres
Possibly new track pump to get tyres seated
Dynaplug kit & spare worms

That mounts up to a fair sum and is what held me back for about 18 months.

My main reason for the switch was for reducing / avoiding those filthy winter inner tube changes.

reaperactual

I got rim tape and valve kit included with my wheelset so need sealant and a decent pump but was never sure a normal pump would work?

Yeah, quicky forgot about being there in heavy rain with muddy tyres, numb, cold fingers feeling miserable, holding everyone up on rides whilst listening to the endless 'constructive criticism' dishes out by my tubeless Buddy's.😭

That's a definite tick in the box for going tubeless.😃👍

joe_totale-2

I've found that if you put two layers of tape on it does make fitting a tyre a little tougher but the vast majority of the time the tyre will then seat with a regular track pump.

On the few occasions it hasn't worked I've just used a CO2 canister which will seat the tyre.

rafletcher

reaperactual said:

loltoride said:

I told my Mate £40 each was a bit steep.

And how much do you think a shop has to charge to cover the cost of labour, premises, stock etc. etc. Even the local bloke in a shed charges £60/h labour, minimum £30. And people who spend £1000's on bikes bloody moan about the cost. Well, learn how to do it yourself if you like. It's not rocket science.

reaperactual

@ratletcher, you missed the point. I personally don't spend thousands on bikes or a penny to someone else to do a job I can do myself for the price of tools and parts.

I don't have a degree in rocket science and do perfectly well using a little help/advice on forums and You Tube. I'll do the same if I decide I want to go tubeless at some point.

So why do that bike shop think their so much better skilled and find it acceptable to bulls#it my Buddy telling him tubeless needs renewing every 6 months, failing with that excuse charging him £20 to bodge a problem he pointed out originally that they said would be fine? 🤔

Maybe it was because he was wearing a suit that day and not in his riding gear? 🤔

Maybe because they can't be ars#d fixing low profit issues, outsourcing them for labour free/overhead free profit etc. etc. and stick to just up selling their high end bikes as that's where the most profit is? 🤔

By the way my Buddy still ain't got his bike back yet, it's day two now. No doubt it'll be a phone call to update the current situation 5 mins before they close today as usual. 😭

brundonbianchi

I’ve had very much a 50 / 50 experience, depending on whether it’s on a road bike, or off road / trail. The road tubeless is a complete and utter nightmare every time. They certainly don’t prevent punctures, which can be a nightmare to sort out roadside, for a multitude of reasons, the tyres cost a lot more, and don’t last any longer than standard tubed clinchers. On the other hand, I won’t be without them on my off road / trail bikes. You can run such low pressure, that any punctures are not anything like the nightmare encounter of the road bikes. I’ve had a few punctures with tubeless on both systems, and it’s always been a doddle to sort the off road ( at worst a worm / anchovy / patch ). The road has never been anything but a massive ball ache. Anyone who says “just put a tube in, job jobbed” clearly has never used a tubeless road tyre, for any length of time before having a ‘game ending’ puncture. What they are clearly failing to understand, is that if you put a tube into a punctured tubeless tyre, you are almost guaranteed to miss something ( more likely many things ) that have got through the tyre previously, but been insignificant because of the sealant. They suddenly become significant if you “just put a tube in yeah”. If it’s not sub zero temperature / wet / dark, and you have enough time, and light, you can spend the time you need to check every inch of the tyre before you put a tube in, but that isn’t very often practical. It is possible to get a punctured road tubeless set up home, but it’s way too much effort, for not much gain.

brundonbianchi

joe_totale-2 said:

I've found that if you put two layers of tape on it does make fitting a tyre a little tougher but the vast majority of the time the tyre will then seat with a regular track pump.

On the few occasions it hasn't worked I've just used a CO2 canister which will seat the tyre.

I’ve found it’s much easier to blast seat the tyres with CO2, if the wheel is off the ground when you do it. Either suspended on a work stand, or ( if you’re brave / stupid enough ) with the wheel in your lap. I’ve recently bought a tanked track pump, which saves wasting CO2 cartridges, but previously used CO2 cartridges to seat the tyres.

whyamihere

brundonbianchi said:

I’ve had very much a 50 / 50 experience, depending on whether it’s on a road bike, or off road / trail. The road tubeless is a complete and utter nightmare every time. They certainly don’t prevent punctures, which can be a nightmare to sort out roadside, for a multitude of reasons, the tyres cost a lot more, and don’t last any longer than standard tubed clinchers. On the other hand, I won’t be without them on my off road / trail bikes. You can run such low pressure, that any punctures are not anything like the nightmare encounter of the road bikes. I’ve had a few punctures with tubeless on both systems, and it’s always been a doddle to sort the off road ( at worst a worm / anchovy / patch ). The road has never been anything but a massive ball ache. Anyone who says “just put a tube in, job jobbed” clearly has never used a tubeless road tyre, for any length of time before having a ‘game ending’ puncture. What they are clearly failing to understand, is that if you put a tube into a punctured tubeless tyre, you are almost guaranteed to miss something ( more likely many things ) that have got through the tyre previously, but been insignificant because of the sealant. They suddenly become significant if you “just put a tube in yeah”. If it’s not sub zero temperature / wet / dark, and you have enough time, and light, you can spend the time you need to check every inch of the tyre before you put a tube in, but that isn’t very often practical. It is possible to get a punctured road tubeless set up home, but it’s way too much effort, for not much gain.

The 2 parts in bold contradict each other.

Reaper, the 6 month thing the shop have mentioned is just putting more sealant in because it can dry out. Almost all tubeless valves have a removable core, allowing you to squirt extra sealant in without removing the tyre. Almost all MTB tyres and rims nowadays will seat with a track pump, most road tubeless tyres do as well.

gomezz

Charlie_Croker said:

gomezz said:

Been tubeless for 4 years did it myself with a home made inflator , changed tires a few times, renewed sealant a few times. Would not bike any other way and I'm an old fart. All is good.

Tell us more about the home made inflator

It's a pump up garden sprayer, swapped the safety release valve for a presta valve from an old tube, still safe up to 40psi!
You can then use a track pump to pressurise it. Took the dip tube from the inside that the liquid used to flow up and put it on to the trigger assembly , it fitted perfect on to the tubeless valve and job's a gudun.
There are vids on you tube of how to do it.

reaperactual

I've heard sealant eventually loses it's original properties over time and chrystalises/breaks down but assume some sealants are much better than others @whyamihere ? Surprised this can happen after around 6 months though but maybe being naive.

Did struggle on my last puncture just getting a brand new tyre off the rim of my as worried about not damaging a brand new set of wheels, broke two plastic tyre levers doing so, definately hoping it's going to be easier next time now that the tyre is a little older and worn in?

whyamihere

The latex based sealants seem to degrade relatively quickly, that includes stuff like Stan's which is pretty common. I've had good results with Muc-Off sealant lasting quite well in MTB tyres, but it doesn't seem to be as good at higher pressures. I'm evaluating Orange Seal in my road tyres, no problems so far but I haven't needed to top up or change it yet.

steve_sordy

I cannot speak for road tubeless, as I don't have a road bike, but I have extensive experience of going/being tubeless on mtb. Sizewise, from 26x2.1" to 29x2.6" and lots in between.

I started by using Slime filled tubes and I went from one flat every 14 miles to zero over several years. Then I went tubeless with sealant and l also went for many years without a flat. I still got punctures though, over two dozen in each tyre was my record. In the time since I went tubeless in Aug'08, I have had three flats. Two were faulty tyres that failed at the bead with a tear I could put four fingers through (warranty claim). The other was from a simple puncture in a lightweight tyre I had put on for the summer lockdown, but failed to put enough sealant in and it had dried out (definitely my error!).

When the LBS said your tubeless needed to be redone in six months they did not mean they would need another £40/tyre, they meant that the sealant would need topping up. This is dead easy to do. Some have success in removing the valve core and squirting in the sealant. But I have always found that the sealant blocks the hole! (Isn't that what it is supposed to do?) So I release 4-6 inches of tyre bead on one side only and pour in the sealant through the gap. That method has the advantage of you being able to see just how much sealant is still in there and maybe also to see and remove any lumps of congealed latex sealant that may have been rumbling about inside the tyre.
Tip1: Shake the bottle of sealant vigorously until all the particles that have sunk to the bottom are thoroughly redistributed. It is the particles that block the hole, the carrier fluid is usually latex and it cures on contact with the air.
Tip 2: Latex sealants are better at sealing the sidewalls of tyres. This is especially useful if your tyre is not marked as "TLR" (tubeless ready).

Converting to tubeless running is one of the first things I do to a new bike. Bar and lever set up, grips, pedals, suspension, tubeless. Then saddle and tyres follow afterwards depending upon how they perform.

Going tubeless is a bit harder than an expert makes it look, but very much easier than a beginner makes it look.

JBA

I wouldn’t hesitate to go tubeless on a mountain bike. The ability to run lower pressures and not get pinch flats is a major benefit. You still get punctures but they seal quickly so you don’t get a flat tyre.
I have been running my MTBs tubeless for about 5 years and my gravel bike for 18 months without any issues. Top up the sealant every 6 months and that’s it. I just remove the valve core and squirt the sealant in. To prevent the blockage that @steve_sordy mentions above I always store the bikes with the valves at the bottom of the wheel. Any sealant in the valve then runs back in to the tyre.

I have had varying degrees of success using a track pump to seat tubeless tyres. It very much depends on the tyre/rim combo. Specialized tyres on Stan’s Arch Mk3 rims seat easily with a track pump. The same tyres on DT Swiss EX511 rims just wouldn’t seat properly without using a high pressure booster. (I used to use a ghetto inflator made from an old 2l pop bottle but was always wary of it exploding. Now have a proper inflator and it is a doddle and less worrying.)

Setting up a pair of wheels for tubeless running is not cheap - about £40 for rim tape, valves and sealant - but worth it in the long run for the hassle it saves dealing with punctures.

steve_sordy

JBA said:

......... Top up the sealant every 6 months and that’s it. I just remove the valve core and squirt the sealant in. To prevent the blockage that @steve_sordy mentions above I always store the bikes with the valves at the bottom of the wheel. Any sealant in the valve then runs back in to the tyre.
.........

I do that as well, but only to stop any problems with adding air. If I ever have any problems adding air, I remove the valve core and clean any latex residue from the core.
But whenever I try to add sealant through the valve, despite removing the valve core, it just blocks. no matter how hard I squeeze the bottle. It is the particles in the sealant that block it. Have you ever read the sealant test methods that bike magazine companies use? They pierce the tyre with increasingly large screwdrivers and they have to use improbably large diameters before some sealants stop working. Larger than my valve anyway.

The only time I have a had a simple puncture in a tyre that the sealant would not block straight away was when I failed to shake the bottle before squirting in the sealant. I could tell I had not shaken the bottle hard enough because the particles were solid at the bottom of the part used bottle and there were no particles inside the tyre.

reaperactual

Thanks for all the thoughts and feedback. I realize that tubeless doesn't stop punctures, the free flowing sealant quickly seals any holes so eventually clicked to the comment made by @brundonbianchi that it certainly doesn't stop punctures and only becomes a problem if trying to fit an innertube in an emergency situation, makes sense!

I'll be sure to pass on my newly acquired perspective to my Buddy on the tubeless topic.😎👍

So I've already got two rolls of rim specific tape and two Presta tubeless valves in a kit. I like my current Conti Trail King rear and WTB Trail Boss front, both seem to work well for me in all aspects, I assume either of these tyres, some latex sealant and a decent pump/ghetto method for fast initial inflation will be suitable if I finally decide to convert to tubeless?

mully79

2 litre coke bottle. wrap with duct tape to give added strength. drill two 6mm holes in lid. cut presta valves out of old tubes leaving a bit of rubber to act as a seal. stick a valve through each hole in lid and tighten securing washer. Fit lid on bottle. Remove valve core from one. Fit pump to other. 8mm pneumatic hose is a nice fit over presta valves so jubilee clip (i use zip ties) onto valve with no core. Rap all the lid bits with a bit of tape in case it goes boom.
Kink pneumatic hose and hold with zip tie to pump up to pressure. Push hose onto tyre presta valve and release zip tie to blow up tyre.

mully79

Also good for using to blow dust out of computer parts!

reaperactual

mully79 said:

2 litre coke bottle. wrap with duct tape to give added strength. drill two 6mm holes in lid. cut presta valves out of old tubes leaving a bit of rubber to act as a seal. stick a valve through each hole in lid and tighten securing washer. Fit lid on bottle. Remove valve core from one. Fit pump to other. 8mm pneumatic hose is a nice fit over presta valves so jubilee clip (i use zip ties) onto valve with no core. Rap all the lid bits with a bit of tape in case it goes boom.
Kink pneumatic hose and hold with zip tie to pump up to pressure. Push hose onto tyre presta valve and release zip tie to blow up tyre.

Nice one for that @mully79, not as complicated as I thought and can use stuff lying around the house, sorted. Thanks!😎👍

mully79

I think i watched this before making mine. You get the idea. Bikeradar even made a vid !
https://youtu.be/EtmatxJG_zg